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Child of the Abyss
climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 1, 2017 - 02:00am PT
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I was sport climbing the other day with a Swiss friend, and learned that when climbing he ties into the end of the rope with an overhand follow-through, as opposed to a figure-8 follow-through. It makes for a very clean, compact knot, that doesn't use up much rope, that does not seem likely to come un-tied, and I'm pretty intrigued to switch over myself (I have used it for half a day so far).
Now, I know that an overhand theoretically (and perhaps empirically as well) makes a rope more likely to break than a figure-8, because it puts sharper bends in the rope. However, for one's tie-in knot, it seems extremely unlikely that the force of the falling climber could ever cause the rope to break in the tie-in knot this way. I think that the chance of the rope getting cut over a sharp edge, or by falling rocks/ice (unfortunately a real risk in climbing, that does happen), is probably at least 100 times greater than the rope simply breaking by tension force in one's overhand follow-through tie-in.
I also know that overhand knots generally are harder to untie than figure-8 knots, and I suspect this is the real reason that an overhand follow-through is not a standard tie-in knot. However, in my little experimentation thus far, it seems just as easy to untie as a figure-8 after falling on it. My Swiss friend has been using it exclusively for the past 35 years of climbing (Trango Tower, Patagonia, Ruth Gorge, establishing most of the routes in the Ratikon, etc), and says he's never had trouble untying it after big falls.
Even if the flaw with an overhand follow-through is that it CAN be difficult to untie, then maybe it's still appropriate for some situations, like a long day of moderate alpine climbing, when whipping is not normal, and when you want to know your knot is never loosening (I think it loosens less than a figure-8).
So, I'm curious if any of you use an overhand follow-through for tying in to the rope, or if you otherwise have some insight I haven't thought of as to why it might be a good or bad idea. I of course won't be surprised by dogmatic responses telling me that I'm an idiotic for thinking to try something un-standard, but am hopeful for helpful insight as well! Thanks!
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norm larson
climber
wilson, wyoming
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Take a whipper with that knot and you'll be using a knife to "untie" it.
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DanaB
climber
CT
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One of my long-term climbing partners has tied in this way for years. He works routes quite a bit, he likes this knot because it is easy to untie after falling, and I've never seen him have difficulty undoing it.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Closely related to the overhand follow-through is something called the "competition knot." It too is a rethreaded overhand knot, but akin to the ring bend (water knot) rather than an overhand loop, and is supposed to be relatively easy to undo after being loaded. The only difference, from the point of view of tying, is that the rethreading process begins on the standing part (the strand further from the harness). See for example http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2z3z8ts&s=1#.WdD8CIprxr8.
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Child of the Abyss
climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 1, 2017 - 02:59pm PT
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Thanks Dana, Robert, and rgold! Those were very helpful replies.
I took some decent whippers on it today, and found it still equally difficult to untie as a standard figure-8 follow through. At least for now I will keep trying it out!
I personally have always thought bowlines seemed a bit sketchy, just because they seem to come untied on their own more easily than a figure-8.
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Apologies; My partner uses the competition knot, pictured in the link in RGold's post. As I previously mentioned, I've seen him take countless falls and the knot is easily untied.
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oldnutz
Trad climber
OAKLAND
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[quote]Closely related to the overhand follow-through is something called the "competition knot." It too is a rethreaded overhand knot, but akin to the ring bend (water knot) rather than an overhand loop, and is supposed to be relatively easy to undo after being loaded. The only difference, from the point of view of tying, is that the rethreading process begins on the standing part (the strand further from the harness). See for example http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2z3z8ts&s=1#.WdD8CIprxr8.[/quote]
Does the direction the tail is rethreaded through the knot make any difference?
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Not sure what you mean, but I think the answer is yes. One direction of rethreading gives you a single overhand loop, the other way gives you the competition knot. Here's a video for the competition knot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au8KiUS4RCc
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oldnutz
Trad climber
OAKLAND
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Thanks Rgold...yes, I meant is there any difference in terms of loading and untie-ability, since they are so similar?
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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People who use the competition knot swear it is easier to untie than a figure-8 after big and/or repeated loads, without being any less likely to loosen and undo. I haven't heard any other comparisons.
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knudeNoggin
climber
Falls Church, VA
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Nov 21, 2017 - 02:28pm PT
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It should be noted that the same approach as done for the "competition knot" in trace-tying it from the end with the main line can be taken with the figure 8. If anything, this is a slightly better knot. (Both knots remain relatively easy to untie because this loading-from-the-same-side (like loading the offset water knot, aka "EDK") pries open (or tries to...) the turn of material that would otherwise bind the knot so tightly to make it a PITA to loosen).
And then one can mix & match the two forms, but to no real advantage other than proving to someone that in fact supposedly easy-to-recognize fig.8 knot isn't all so, vs. these lookalikes.
NB: one "re-threads" going on the *exterior* side of the traced strands.
*kN*
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Nov 22, 2017 - 12:01pm PT
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The competition knot sounds interesting but for general climbing it may be more difficult to inspect the knot, not readily being able to see the tail. Tying it off seems like it could be problematic. I had knot heard of it and will check it out. Normally I use the overhand follow-through.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 22, 2017 - 03:39pm PT
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No need to know too many knotts. know at least one bomber knott for every task that you need to perform. KISS
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 23, 2017 - 08:48am PT
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If you know a safe way to do something and it has kept you alive for 35 years why change it up? I learn new things all the time. I change parts of my game that need improvement. Tieing in is not one of the parts that needs improvement.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 23, 2017 - 08:50am PT
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Tieing in is not one of the parts that needs improvement.
Not true.
According to time and circumstance, one method only does not hold ........
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gunsmoke
Mountain climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Nov 24, 2017 - 02:36pm PT
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the "competition knot" ... is supposed to be relatively easy to undo after being loaded
Tried it today at the gym. After two very light falls and several hangs I found the competition knot to be harder to untie than the standard figure-8. I think the figure-8's lack of compactness is a benefit when untying. I often take new climbers climbing, and they struggle to untie their knot because they don't have a strategy. Once you know how to bend it, working the outer pair of loops away from the knot and pushing both cords coming out of the knot together, it's not hard unless one has taken a real whipper.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 24, 2017 - 05:38pm PT
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Lot’s of knots will work, just remember to dress them and have a long enough tail.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Nov 24, 2017 - 05:48pm PT
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tie it, load it, wet it, freeze it...then try to untie it ...
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