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quartziteflight
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 9, 2006 - 04:34pm PT
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Hi all,
I know some of you all ski and some don't. I don't ski, but I've been thinking of starting. For those who do I have a question. Do you all patronize resorts and other type of development in the mountains associated with skiing? I'm not condeming you if you do, but in my opinion most skiing that is associted with resorts is the anthethisis of any type of enviromental ethic. When I see developemnt in the mountains it makes me unhappy. Excluding the types of skiing where you have to work for your ride, skiing seems like an act of endolence by the corpulent and wealthy. When I've tried to brining up the dichomous mind set of some skiers to other skiers the cogs of the mind grind to a halt. Questioning the enviromental ethicacy of skiing to the resort skiers I've talked to is akin to trying to have conversation about atheisim with a southern baptist.
Recently I've spoken with a couple backcountry guys and split boarders. In general they seem to have a broader perspective on skiing and are often critical of resort development. Thought most of them started skiing at resorts
they seem to see the faults of resort skiing. I've had mixed responses about the plausability and risk of starting out skiing exclusively in the backcountry. Did anyone here start out backcountry skiing?
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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yes
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quartziteflight
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 9, 2006 - 04:45pm PT
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best reply ever
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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When I started snowboarding, they weren't allowed at resorts.
Learn at a resort, then never go back.
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dufas
Trad climber
san francisco
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resorts are to skiing what gym climbing is to the real thing, except the air is cleaner and there's no crappy music.
great training for doing the real thing with the ability to log lots of vertical quickly. nothing like hitting it for a few hours on a work day, but there is nothing like wide open backcountry with noone for miles.
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ground_up
Trad climber
mt. hood /baja
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As a race coach and instructor for the past 27 yrs , I'd say get going with the backcountry gear. An athletic type( like climbers) will adapt quickly. Skiing basics are the same for alpine and backcountry, so get lessons either from a pro or from the strongest skiing buddy you can. There is a correct way to turn those boards and a wrong way, you can get away with the wrong way at a resort with groomed runs....but your ass will be handed to you in the sastrugi. Backcountry skiers have to be technically better skiers , so learn right. Backcountry skiing also demands alot more varied activity on the skis , climbing,traversing,negotiating rocks,and often with a pack on.
I'm not sure where Burt Bronson went , but I'm sure he started on b/c gear.
To anwer your question .. it's easier therefore quicker to learn how to turn on groomed slopes with alpine gear..period.
But you'll do fine on b/c gear , just a tougher learning curve.
The basics to slidin on boards is the same for both, Have fun n be safe.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Quartzite: You haven't told us where you live, much about your outdoor background and fitness level, or where or plan to ski - that may affect advice.
I started backcountry skiing long ago, with pretty basic equipment. I already had some experience in mountaineering and snowshoeing, and went directly into backcountry trips, with a club. Using what was then called ski-mountaineering gear - Ramy Securus cable bindings, Head Standard skiis, double leather lace up boots.
The learning curve was steep, and it took 2-3 years before I could comfortably get down things. The people who came to backcountry skiing from a solid background of downhill skiing seemed to get the hang of it more quickly.
Most find it easier to get started on alpine touring gear than freeheel/telemark gear. Overall more control, and perhaps a bit safer in terms of releasability. The alpine touring gear now is quite decent for downhill skiing, too.
I suggest that you take some downhill lessons at some nearby ski area, preferably somewhere with reasonably reliable conditions. It's a simple way to get some skill and experience, and usually you can get cheap or included rental gear. (Make sure it's set up properly!)
There are good books and videos about all this.
Backcountry skiing introduces major new variables - soft or inconsistent and ungroomed snow, skiing with a pack, no support network, etc. It also opens up a peaceful winter wonderland. It's very hard work, especially breaking trail, and a high risk activity - in my part of the world, more climbers/mountaineers get killed in avalanches than from all other causes combined. Have the equipment, take a course, and practice - and remember that beacons are for finding bodies. If you're lucky, bodies that are alive. Often they aren't.
It's easiest to start with modest day trips, hopefully with experienced companions, and work up. That also involves less investment. Learn how to survival ski - in the backcountry, 80% of the time is going uphill, and all that's needed is fitness and moderate skill. If you want to go downhill like a swan, that'll take time, and for a while you'll spend a lot of it digging yourself out. The traverse/side slip/kickturn routine for going downhill is often more efficient, if less graceful.
I don't much go to ski resorts - not my style. I don't know about the overall impact of ski resorts, or how an individual contributes to it. Downhill skiing often seems to involve quite a lot of travel, which tends to have significant impacts. (So does climbing, and backcountry skiing.) Most resorts now combine real estate development (the real money-maker) with the skiing, and off season things like golf. As they're usually in sub-alpine environments, that suggests a fair impact. It's also a fairly managed environment. (One definition of ski resort: Value added clear cut.)
It would be interesting to learn what sort of environmental impact or carbon emission information is available from ski resorts. My guess is that it's not cheery, but I wouldn't be surprised if resorts started to distinguish themselves based on footprint - good marketing, given their clientele.
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andanother
climber
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I certainly hope you're not going to drive your car to the mountains.
You speak of the eco-morality of ski resorts, so I imagine you don't even own a car. Right?
So how will you get to the mountains? Will you walk?
You can't live there, because then you would be contributing to the development. In fact, you can't really live anywhere. You need to cut down trees in order to build a house. And don't even get me started on heating!
The fact is, ski resort development isn't really that bad. It's no worse than any other type of development. If you are, in fact, driving an automobile to the mountains, then you might as well take a few days and learn to ski at a resort. It will make your first few days in the backcountry much more enjoyable.
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pimp daddy wayne
Trad climber
ice cave
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I live in a stupid ski town. They suck. You are better off hiking your ass up the hill if your a hippie because there is a lot of consumption going on at these places. Some ski areas like Mad River Glen in Vermont have no snowmaking. That helps a lot with the polution factor. There is another resort called Okemo that uses solar. That's cool, but there is way too much consumption going on and I don't like. F*#kers...........
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quartziteflight
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 9, 2006 - 06:39pm PT
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Ekat,
Full circle. hmm. interesting. nice reply. Thanks.
MH,
Good points. I am homeless dirtbag visiting family in the SE. I'm probably headed to CO to climb ice. So probably skiing in SW CO. Fitness wise I'm not sure how you quantify fitness, but here goes I think I'm moderately fit. I climb 10 trad, sometimes I onsight sometime I get waxed on 10 trad. The only time I had my VO2max tested it was somewhere near 68 or so.
And another,
Nice troll. Assbag. So from your perspective you can't even ponder enviromental ethics unless you live in cave with a bark loin cloth eating nothing by liverwart leaves? I suspect you are a skiier in denial of your repugnant ways... If by some mis-step you're serious you don't have a firm grasp on how life works. Any type of existance displaces or consumes another type of life. Maybe you should make an effort to understand the altonian pyramid and heisenbergs uncertainty priciple and get back to me.
Pimpdaddy,
Does snowmaking just use water and electricity? I am not a hippie, but what is a hippie? Yeah some skiers are mega tools...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Shee-Yat & Hot Dawg!
Private jets, 10K square ft starter castles up high and down low, huge dumb arse oversize SUV's, a sense of fuch you I'll consume what I darn well want, high calorie everything and a full body surgical, chemical, and genetically cloned re-juve at the end of it all.
The rich just get way richer.
Um, I ski a local resort for turns. I log a lot of back country 3 pin type touring mileage in the trees, but I don't typicaly "tour to turn" up high, because the snowpack in Colorado is often deadly and I'm scared. I also use tracks for skate skiing, cuz it's da bomb werk out.
That said, Glen Dawson has ski'd all 50 sumthin' fourteeners and written an immaculate guidebook for it.
We have a terrific hut system and people use those to get in position for back country bowls (the snowy kind). I’ll get deeper into that scene, probably just to “ski through”, meaning into a hut and out the other side same day. Better know how to turn ‘em, in that case. So that’s a big part of my “practice” time on the groomy groomers.
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pimp daddy wayne
Trad climber
ice cave
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No. I was on your side man. These resorts mix stuff in the water for snow making to make it freeze at a warmer temp. Kinda f*#ked up. Developemnt in the mountains it makes me unhappy too man.
Peace out my brotha..........
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Aya
Uncategorizable climber
New York
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I started skiing when I was 2 years old and skiied all through freshman year in college, when, in the last slalom run in the last race of the season, I hooked a tip on the last gate and messed up my right MCL. Never went to rehab, gave up skiing. Took up snowboarding, did that for a good 9 years (at "resorts") and discovered ice climbing.
I haven't been to a ski "resort" since!
It's way cheaper.
Skiing at resorts reminds me a lot of Vegas - something about it all just smacks of quintissential "americanism"... i.e. indulgence, capitalism, and the like.
I suppose I might take up backcountry skiing at some point in the future, but honestly, after being spoiled for the past 30 years (well, almost. I'll be 30 come Wednesday!) riding lifts, it just seems like too much work.
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andanother
climber
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quartz,
I was being sarcastic, assbag. The point I was trying to make is that EVERYTHING is harmful to the environment. Ski resorts are the least of your concerns.
Yeah, they use electricity and water. Yeah, they cut down some trees.
I'm not saying those things are OK. But, by owning and operating an automobile you are doing about 1 million times the damage to the environment than you would by patronizing a ski resort for a few days.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Mobius says it best.
I did start xc first, the 'back country' of Illinois, Wisc, and Michigan; don't laugh till you ski a snowy dune! haha
For decades I generally distained the resorts (though did manage to take advantage of various free chances to ski at most of the No cal resorts-but that wasn't what I was into, no way hup, hup)
I did a bunch of tours in those years Tioga pass-snow creek-yv, camping trips in the winds, bighorns and med bow, etc. And avoiding Anything, runs or fashion, that was too "Downhillskiing-like"
But in the early 90's I found myself working in the outdoor industry in Reno with access to modern tele gear and and all kinds of industry passes. The areas largely became my friends.
I recall once riding up alift to what I thought was an easy warmup run @ squaw and seeing The sign "KT-22, expert skiers only Beyond this point," With untired demo gear on my feet. yahoo! that was an eye-opener!
When I moved to vail to be a shuttle driver at the turn of the century I entered the four heaviest skiing years of my life; Skate, resort Tele, off pist, and peakbagging.
I Never developed the love of cordury that e-blin mentions, but I get it! The backbowls were the thing for me, miles of ungroomed runs that you didn't have to climb back up, truly spectacular after a big dump.
I even got into tele-bumping, something I would never have seen myself doing, before.
My comparison was that Resort skiing, (be it skate or alpine)= sport climbing. And there are a lot of good sport climbs out there, even though that is not my first love.
I will always love skiing, and do it when opportunity arises, but as a skier, I am a pretty good rockclimber.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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quartzite,
groundup gave you some great wisdom. I do believe that andanother was trying to get you to see all sides of things. Very few of human actions on earth are good for the environment. Hell, we dont even put our carbon back into the environment when we die.
I would say it would take a unique and psyched individual who can learn to be a totally awesome skier without partaking of lifts. Not saying it does not get done, but the learning curve is gonna be much flatter for you. In fact, I would dare say it is a huge handicap. FWIW I started at age 5 in 1966. During High School I started backcountry skiing on light touring gear and trying to get down black diamonds on resorts on that gear. I could not take all those crashes at my age today, but those times are among the best in my life. Talk about learning balance, man! Nothing like trying to ski with a 50 lb pack down steep stuff with 2 feet of Utah pow and submarining into the snow on light stuff with $5 boots. In my mind plastic boots are aid for telemarking but I dont give a sh&& what people do. I do laugh about some of the K2 stickers like "Randonee means can't tele." Crap, with the tele gear out there today ones grandma can learn how to do it.
I am more like tarbuster in that I like to do all types of skiing but have two kids actively involved in ski racing. Is it a decadent sport? yes. Expensive? yes. But what other sports have a constantly different venue, conditions, environment with a changing course and puts you at 70mph (talking about my kids here). What other sports except climbing take you into the mountains? It is just plain fun and exciting.
I like resorts that arent too developed. I have not skiied Vail in 35 years but now when I drive by it on the freeway I kind of get a sick feeling for all the condos and development at the base so I can relate to what you are saying. Most of the resorts here in the PNW, like Bachelor or Hood Meadows dont have overnight accomodations which in my mind significantly lessens the "human factor".
One more thing. It seems kind of freakin ridiculous for those folks who learned on resorts and now are exclusive BC skiers to bitch about resorts. Like the guy who learns to climb in the gym but now climbs outside and says all gyms are bad and should be banned. Skiing at least allows some folks who may never experience the mountains to experience them.
groundup, i used to coah kids at MBSEF. Maybe I know you. Here is a pic I posted of my kid racing at age 11 last year at Buddy's. (Proud Parent chest out here....)
blinny, your awesome. Go tear those groomers up girl!
Gary
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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A photo, please!!
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DHike
climber
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Ahhhh, Skiing,, about as pointless as climbing, what purpose does it really serve?
FUN, CHALLENGING, EXHILARATING, ETC,ETC.
Backcountry, Pros; first descents possible, earn turns, pristine, uncrowded, (at times) less $$, less environmental impact.
Cons; can be dangerous, exposure, elements, avalanches, rockfall,
slow, not much vertical descent per hour, requires higher degree of fitness, medical help is often far, inconsistent snow conditions, instruction not readily available, less social,(could be pro)
Downhill, Pros; less exposure to avalanches, controlled, consistent conditions, many reps, lots of vertical descents,(great for technique) jib and terrain parks, instruction readily available, amenities, medical, paraplegic accessable, more freeride and snowboarder dudes/babes, more social (could be con)
Cons; $$pendy, crowded, less anerobic, (could be pro, or unless hiking tons inbounds) usually quite tracked/bumped (could be pro) environmentally damaging, physically high impact, not many 1st descents(unless you are an extreme billygoater)
Cross country, Pros; less expensive, more anerobic, practically total body strengthening, less crowded, lower impact, instruction readily available, often pristine terrain, dudes/babes are usually more fit, poles are usually longer ;)
Cons; not many, 'cept less enjoyable in icy or changeable conditions, must stay in groomed track, huge bulge showing lycra still fashionable as outerwear, (could be pro)!!
Snowlerblading, Pros; can't really see any
Cons; Queer as can be,(could be pro)
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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blinny,
alas. My Karhu XCD's were presented to my dad who has them in his garage down in SW Montana. I loved those things. What I kick myself about is when I sold my Epoke 1100's. I had bought them used for 40$. I dont know why I didnt keep them. I admit, I now have a pair of randonee boots and skiis. The boots are freakin awesome when I help at my kids races. Coaching=standing in the cold.
You will like the plastic boots. man o man. That kid I posted a pic of started skiing on my back at age 6months, right about when I got my plastic OHHriginal Scarpa T2's. We only crashed a couple times, winging out on hard snow. This was before the big lifts to keep you from doin that. As the kid got older he was on his own skiis. Sometimes he would fall asleep on the lift at age 3 and I would be teleing down with him in my arms. I would have to lay him down in the snow as it fell on his cheeks while I took my skiis off. He slept so peacefully that people would come ask if he was alright! Id just take him into the lodge and lay him right on top of the table while he slept.
I eventually went back to alpine skiing after a 15 year hiatus and did a little coaching and racing. Pretty fun stuff.
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