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jt
Trad climber
joshua tree, ca
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 21, 2003 - 07:59pm PT
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I recently had a very negative experience with a dog at my local crag.
I was supposed to meet a new climbing partner and her friends there, and was walking around looking for her. I spotted her leading a route around 15 feet off the deck and went over to say hello. When I was getting close to the group one of her friends came over to me and introduced herself, and a dog, that i had not seen, jumped up from under a bush and did a quick bite on my leg, release, and retreat back under the bush. It did not penetrate my leg or pants, or hurt, but it shocked me, and pissed me off. When this happened everyone in the group was watching. After the bite, these people turned back to the crag without saying anything. I then stated, excuse me, someone's dog just bit me. No response. I then repeated myself, a little louder. Some guy stood up approached me and said that his dog didn't bite me, but that my leg had run in to his open mouth. I said, what? He repeated himself, and then went on to tell me that his dog never starts fights, he justs finishes them. I was shocked, again.
Under normal circumstances, if the dog was still a threat to me, I would kick him in to the next zip code, but he had retreated and the dude had control of him. I then would have then launched a very agressive verbal attack against the owner. I didn't say or do anything. I had just met these people and didn't really want to go ballistic on this dude, and totally alienate me from my new partner and her friends. I just walked away.
Climbing is a major part of my life, and something that has always been a great release for me. Whenever I come home after a climbing trip, i feel cleansed or purified, and everything in my life seems much clearer. I really don't need to go too deepily in to that subject, because i am sure that a lot of the participants of this site feel the same way.
I don't need negative vibes, or bad karma on the stone. I really don't know how i could have handled this situation any better. I love dogs, but this is the 2nd time i have been bitten this year. I am not sure if dogs should really be allowed on the crags.
Any and all constructive advice and opinions are welcome.
Oh yeah, one more thing, I never heard from my new partner again. Classy, hunh?
JT
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Sputnik
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Dec 21, 2003 - 10:01pm PT
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I know how you feel JT, I was recently bitten at a clients house by two (count em, two) little rat-ass piece of sh#t excuses for a dog. Had the client not been home (who by the way tried to act like they didn’t see it happen), I would have tied their tails together & tossed em into the pool. I used to have dogs (well, wolves actually, but close enough) and for the most part love dogs. I am however, as of the last few years, growing tired of dogs in general. I’ve a friend who takes his dog everywhere, and only climbs at crags where dogs are allowed. I’ve had him nip at me once and saw him nip at a small girl once. I guess the dogs are not to blame, it is the irresponsible owners who fell they have the right to take them everywhere, the result is people such as myself growing resentful of the animal, not the human in charge. You can climb around a dozen different dogs and never have a problem, then one random mutt takes a swipe at you and your entire outlook changes.
Bummer, huh?
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Wade Icey
climber
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Dec 21, 2003 - 10:29pm PT
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JT- Sorry to hear about your negative experience at the crags. I'm always distressed by these tales because one of my best friends and climbing companions is canine. Maggiedog grew up going to work with me at a climbing shop, sleeping on crash pads and under plastic cragging walls, meeting me at the top of climbs and boulders(i'v e seen her send 5.10 slab), and she's been on numerous road trips to most of the climbing areas in the western US. She's lived the climbing life since she was born and has never had a problem with a climber (though she has taken on a bear, a mountain lion and has a low tolerance for squirells, chipmunks and magazine editors).
I realize that not everyone likes to be approached by 80 lB wolf dogs, friendly or no. So Maggie is always on belay at cragging area's and we always clean up after her and never leave her unsupervised at the base of a climb. I consider Maggie's safety and the safety of my fellow climbers(*when they are on the ground in proximity to Maggie) to be my responsibility.
All that said, we all know that a certain percentage of any group, human or animal, are idiots. I 've been menaced by dogs at the crags and my wife was recently attacked by a pit bull while running near our home(maggie ran it off). I believe any aggressor, man or beast, should be dealt with accordingly. Your experience sounds like a problem with a human.
Like graffitti, trash, vegetation and trees cut at the base of crags (you know who you are, as#@&%es) the actions of a few give the rest of us a bad name and create access problems for the whole group. I would encourage everyone to lead by example and to realize that a problem with a dog is usually a problem with its' human companion. My wife carries mace now on her runs and will not hesitate to take out a problem beast or person.
JT, I have no advice for you other than treat an attack by any being accordingly (large camming devices applied upside the head are quite effective at detering aggression.)
I think your experience should serve as notice to all dog owners that our rights are in danger because of the thoughtless actions of a few dumbshits. If you see someone acting irresponsibly, call 'em on it. And, as I said, Dog people-lead by example. Hopefully a positive experience with well behaved, under control animals like Maggie and myself will balance the account for you JT.
Sincerely,
Wade and Maggiedog
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Wade Icey
climber
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Dec 22, 2003 - 12:54am PT
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Uh...Thanks for the reminder Mr. B. I did say she'd never had a problem with a climber, (even a stinking vagrant climber). We probably should have maced the guy before he ever set foot in the shop...For his own good, of course. I've always found Maggie to be an excellent judge of characters...She hired you(!).
Merry @#$ing xmas Bringme
Long gone to the dogs,
Wade
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Dec 22, 2003 - 01:15am PT
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Homeless people should be fed to anyone/anything that is hungry. Simple aggression sans appetite is also acceptable.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Dec 22, 2003 - 03:04am PT
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I got bit by a dog years ago at Low Profile Dome in Tuolumne, but (paradoxically) it was a good example of a cool dog owner:
The owners were doing Golfer's Route, and (unbeknownst to anyone) the dog was quietly freaking out at them getting too far up when I hiked up. The dog was right at the base, looking up, so I reached a hand out to let it sniff me, and it just turned and chomped my hand (small punctures, no big deal, but a real bite and a bit of blood), then immediately went back to staring up. My friends (who'd arrived a minute earlier) said the dog was friendly a minute ago, one of them started towards it, and it just growled deep. We all said "OK", roped up just right of the dog, and I led that route left of Darth Vader's Revenge using the no pro easy slab start. The owners had heard us, and as I was leading the upper crux, the guy was rapping down and asked if someone had been bit. I showed him my hand, I said it was no big deal, but that I wanted to know if the dog had had shots lately. He apologized profusely, said the dog had just had them a couple weeks ago, and said he'd leave his contact info with my partners.
No one had a pen, so when they left (I was belaying up top), they asked about our car, and left a long detailed note with all their contact info. THAT is responsible ownership.
Considering that dogs aren't even allowed there, I probably could really have reamed them with a lawyer, but they were cool, they hadn't seen that sort of behavior out of their dog before, and they weren't planning on bringing the dog again if they both left the ground on climbs.
With good owners, dogs aren't a problem (unless too many end up in a small space like the Happies). With problem dogs (nearly always a reflection of the owner), get in the owner's face and make it too uncomfortable for them to bring the dog to the crag next time.
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Dec 22, 2003 - 09:46am PT
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I have two dogs and for the most part I find it more a hassle to take my dogs climbing than an enjoyable experience. They're both well behaved but it means that I have to constantly watch them rather than focus on climbing. Simply tying them to a rock or shrub while I climb for the day isn't something I would ever do. Bouldering is a fun activity with dogs because I can interact with them while still having fun climbing. However, as Greg mentions there can be issues when there are too many dogs in a confined area.
Even though I usually try to avoid bringing dogs climbing with me I would hate to see more "rules" at the crags designed to simply ban dogs. Who would make these rules? Climbers? It's a tricky business and it totally depends on the type of crag but since when do climbers own these areas? Take some patch of National Forest that an old man has been taking his dogs to for the past 30 years. Somewhere along the lines the area becomes recognized by climbers as a popular destination. Well, why should this activity all of a sudden take precedence over all others? I think climbers better learn to share land or we're going to be in big trouble.
I guess that it ultimatley comes down to this strange idea some people have that humans own everything on this planet and all other species beware, even our little weekend games and hobbies are much more important than you. Huamans and domesticated dogs have been hunting, working and playing together outdoors for thoulsands of years. It defines both species. I'd like to see it stay that way. In my mind, the problem continues to be bad dog owners not dogs.
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Southern Man
climber
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Dec 22, 2003 - 10:17am PT
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Jt:
As a trainer of dogs, I see this type of unfortunate scenerio happen all to often. Some of the previous posts have pretty much hit the problem on the head. The dog owner simply hasn't taken the time to establish a true bond with their pet, which is the first step in just about any learning situation be it man or dog. As most of us know, dogs are pack animals. They need an alpha figure to keep them in line/teach them. This bond or imprinting generally begins to happen around the 49th day after the pups birth. How do you establish a bond? After its been with its mother and brothers/sisters for 49 days, you step in, take over and spend lots of time with the puppy. Let me say it one more time. Lots of time. How many people have lots of time to spend bonding and training a pup? The answer, not many. Raising a dog is a lot of responsibility which most people don't realize. JT, the selfish bastard you referenced probably hasn't taken the time to bond and then train his dog. I think you did the right thing at the crag the other day. Yelling at the owner and getting in his face might make you feel better but it would probably do little to change the problem, which ulimately has more to do with the principles/priorities of the owner rather than the actions of the dog. There are alot of dogs at climbing areas these days and all it takes is one untrained, unsupervised dog and associated "master" to ruin a good day of climbing. For reference purposes, I like the dog training books by Richard Walters. He used the principles developed by the Seeing Eye Dog Academy. His books on sporting dogs may have been written a few years ago but his training strategy sure has worked for me. As a side note and point to ponder, people that have dogs that respect and obey their owners often have children that respect and obey their parents. Many of the same principles that go into dog rearing (love, consistency, spending time, and metered discipline) apply to raising a child.
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poop*ghost
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Dec 22, 2003 - 10:33am PT
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Yo jt -
That dude needed his ass handed to him. If me and my bud Paul Johnson were there we would have WWF tag teamed his ass and I would have delivered a DDT. and a face to the turn-buckle.
Once that was done I would have taken his dog home and trained him to behave. Poor dog probably was abused or something.
I've spent damn near every non-climbing day for the last two years at the dog park. The two times I've had run-ins with aggressive dogs is when the owners were ass-faced-ass-monkeys.
It's hard to not get pissed at the dog, but bad people raise bad dogs.
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swilling bear
Trad climber
lee vining
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Dec 22, 2003 - 11:57am PT
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Well I was taught that when a dog bites, you have to put it to sleep.But after reading all of this I say you put the owner to sleep.I have friends with children 0-10 that bring their kids to the crags, would if it was a 2 year old the dog bit?
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Satan
Social climber
South Central LA ( HELL )
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Dec 22, 2003 - 12:19pm PT
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"would if it was a 2 year old the dog bit?"
Solution - two words, the first starts with " S ", the second starts with " Gun " ( whether you shoot the dog, the owner or both would be your judgement call ).
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Dec 22, 2003 - 12:32pm PT
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Little children should be eaten too.
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Dec 22, 2003 - 01:06pm PT
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I was bit at Tahquitz once. I was returning to my gear after a climb and this dog just went ballistic. It wasn't leashed and the owners were belaying/climbing and couldn't control it. I took off my helmet from my pack, and held it. I tried to show the dog I wasn't afraid, but when I turned to walk past it the little guy rushed forward and bit my calf. It drew blood and really hurt so I just creamed the little guy in the head with my helmet. He left me alone after that. The owner said "thanks" for teaching his dog a lesson and "sorry." I don't think that he knew his dog would do that. I was pissed for a day or two, and then I got over it.
I've seen a lot of dogs at the crags, and most of them are behaved. I've only seen 3 dogs that were out of control, the one that bit me and two others at Williamson (of course). One was a puppy (kinda understandable and not a huge problem, just overly friendly) and the other's owner gave it NO attention while it wreaked havoc. I like most dogs at the crag. If you have problems with people's dogs at the crags, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. If the dog bites you and the owner is an ass, then KICK his ass. Don't complain about it on an internet forum later and wonder what should be done. That guy got away with being a dick with a bad dog. In animal training lingo, he just had positive reinforcement. Well, next time give that guy NEGATIVE reinforcement of some sort. Next time he'll think twice about bringing his dog to the crags and letting it wreak havoc. Don't let the government and laws rule our community. If you see someone doing something you don't like SAY SOMETHING. Learn to be confrontational. If I see someone with a bad dog I'm gonna say something. If I see someone littering I'm going to cuss them out and tell them to pick it the up! Cmon guys, DON'T let the government do what we should be doing through self regulation. SAY SOMETHING TO THE PERSON, NOT TO A FORUM!
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Mick Ryan
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Dec 22, 2003 - 02:20pm PT
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I just had to change a caption on a cartoon for a BLM/FS climbing brochure.
The cartoon is off dogs running amuck at a climbing area...shitting, ripping vegetation up, barking, getting in the way.....(I love dogs by the way).
The caption used to say....."keep your dog leashed at climbing areas"........it has now been changed to......"please don't bring your dog to popular climbing areas".
The tide is turning, slowly, and it is being changed for us.
Good owners, bad owners...it makes no difference. Too many dogs at a climbing area isn't a good thing.
Mick
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Marin Hot Tub Country
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Dec 22, 2003 - 02:27pm PT
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This is a great thread, with lots of very entertaining writing.
I consider most dogs to be good friends. Emphasis on most.
What many folks don't realize is the legal liability involved in dog-bite cases.
I am astounded that a dog owner would have the audacity (stupidity?) to exhibit
anything less than a profound, heart-felt apology if their dog bit someone.
I generally wouldn't punish the dog beyond a good drop-kick to the chops--
provided it was only an exploratory nip. Draw blood? Look out!
And if someone actually said that my leg "walked into the dog's mouth",
I would probably immediately place him under Citizen's Arrest, and use any "approprate measures"
to prevent him from leaving the scene--before law-enforcement and Animal Control
officers could arrive to take a report and impound the animal for quarantine...
I'll make this clear: I love animals--especially dogs--but absolutely will not tolerate
having my civil rights voilated by mindless idiots--and/or their savage beasts.
Hardman Knott
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Dec 22, 2003 - 02:36pm PT
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re. "Too many dogs at a climbing area isn't a good thing."
Hell, too many people at climbing areas isn't a good thing. Last time I was at the ButterMilks I rounded a corner and almost stepped in human shit! What the fricking hell!! I don't think regulations banning dogs solves anything. I think dogs are just a current scape goat for an increasingly large group of humans(usually introduced to climbing via bouldering) who have zero respect for the land they're playing on. Banning dogs is like treating the symtom instead of the disease. Neverthess, I have no doubt that Mick is right...that's where we're headed.
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Dec 22, 2003 - 02:37pm PT
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That's what I'm talking about hardman! Lets take this stuff into our own hands so that others don't have to regulate for us! I'm not talking out of control vigilante stuff, but GET PISSED! Say something...
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Marin Hot Tub Country
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Dec 22, 2003 - 03:02pm PT
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Minerals wrote:
Little children should be eaten too.
Especially screeching, beseeching infants left unattended...
Hardman Knott
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Mick Ryan
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Dec 22, 2003 - 04:30pm PT
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" I think dogs are just a current scape goat for an increasingly large group of humans(usually introduced to climbing via bouldering) who have zero respect for the land they're playing on."
I'd agree, partially, with your first premise, but the second is blaming a collective problem on a sub-culture of climbing whose attitudes are quite diverse, and it is counter-productive to solving the problem.
Less finger-pointing would be more productive. It's "us" not "them".
Climbers get introduced to climbing through a variety of ways and there is no proven link that one way of how climbers get into climbing predisposes them to environmental vandalism.
Like you initially said....it's a numbers problem. The greater the numbers the greater the impact and small behavioural problems (shitting, going off trail, dogs) become big ones.
Education and peer pressure is the key, and there is hope that the few who are ignorant, whoever they are, will eventually change their ways. But pointing fingers could have the opposite effect.
Those who boulder around Bishop are some of the most environmentally aware climbers I have ever met. They have to be.
Mick
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Dec 22, 2003 - 06:49pm PT
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Good points Mick.
Some thoughts...
re."there is no proven link that one way of how climbers get into climbing predisposes them to environmental vandalism. "
As far as I know there is no study on this subject period so of coarse there is no "proven" evidence. However, it seems like it would be a fairly safe assumption to assume that one who was introduced to climbing via a childhood or lifetime spent in the outdoors would be more likely to be sensitive to environmental concerns than one who took up bouldering after they purchased Outside Magazine at a newsstand in Manhattan. Mind you, I'm not talking about intentional vandalism. I'm simply talking about ignorance.
re."Less finger-pointing would be more productive. It's "us" not "them"."
You can call it finger pointing if you want but I don't see how you can educate climbers if you don't first acknowledge the need for education with in certain climbing communities. I'm certainly not suggesting that environmental ignorance is unique to bouldering. It just that it seems that is how most youg climbers are being introduced to the sport these days and that's also where most access problems involving dogs are occuring. Bouldering's popularity has made it the front lines for these issues. It only makes sense to focus attention on bouldering to some degree. We could start up a campaign to educate Yosemite big wall climbers but I don't think dog sh#t or dog bites are currently major concerns 2000' feet up on ElCap.
re."Those who boulder around Bishop are some of the most environmentally aware climbers I have ever met.
You live there so you would know better than I but that sure hasn't been my experience. I took my dogs to the Happy Boulders recently and it seems like I spent the entire afternoon picking up sh#t from other dogs. As soon as they were in the main bouldering area no one seemed to pay any attention to where their dogs were or what they were doing. It was a free for all. That's NOT what I would call environmentally aware behavior. You can blame it on the dogs but I'm going to disagree and blame it on human ignorance. Based on your comments, it sounds like you've seen these problems yourself. I can't help but wonder why you want to hold up this behavior as "environmentally aware".
So how do you educate climbers who own dogs? Good question. I don't think that banning dogs actually educates climbers in any way at all. Unfortunately, I don't have much in the way of alternatives to suggest. Maybe it is too late. Many dog parks provide plastic bags for picking up after your dog. It's probably a silly idea but perhaps steps in that type of direction would do a better job of actually educating climbers than an outright ban would. An educated dog owner would know to come prepared but perhaps an uneducated dog owner needs this kind of nudge.
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