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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 25, 2014 - 10:52am PT
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I was looking at CMac's review of the Petzl Bongo and his report of Caldwell's amazing drilling speed.
The Bongo is listed as 680 g which is fairly light for a peg hammer but a lighter hammer might actually be faster for drilling. I have a theory that although hitting harder probably goes farther per blow, a lighter hammer may hit more often, require fewer rest breaks and require less effort. I'm trying to devise a series of tests to try this out but there are some obvious problems in comparing different hammers. The best test would be overhead drilling but it is hard to arrange an overhead test fixture. Right now I'm collecting a pile of hammers and documenting their physical characteristics. I think the location of the center of gravity in relation to the striking surface will also be important - I am guessing that a lighter handle will be better balanced because the CG will be closer to the striking surface.
So far the hammers I have and their mass in grams (excluding slings) are:
920 Omega Pacific Wall Hammer
751 McDevitt
717 GI Surplus Yosemite hammer knockoff
716 Chouinard Yosemite Hammer w/ hole (1980's? a bit worn, some grinding)
703 Forrest (welded pick)
638 Forrest alpine (changeable pick)
620 Stubai (1950's?)
608 Stubai (1970's?, pick may have been cut)
583 Chouinard Alpine (1977?)
477 Salewa Rockhammer (yellow)
I have a Grivel Thor Hammer on the way.
The handle and its vibration characteristics are probably also important. Wood seems to be good for vibration while the Salewa Rockhammer uses a "polymide" handle which is claimed to reduce vibration. Sadly, I got rid of my Piezo accelerometers and charge amplifiers so can no longer measure vibration directly. Probably have to do something subjective.
Send me more hammers. Perhaps you'd trade a hammer for one of the drill holders I make.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Jun 25, 2014 - 11:12am PT
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Banquo,
if you could also make some comments on the grips(for example I find the Omega Pacific Wall Hammer grip to be hard to hold)... that would be great.
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couchmaster
climber
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Jun 25, 2014 - 11:41am PT
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No A5/D5 Banquo? I can weigh one and convey the weight to you. Are you listing the total weight? Of interest to the conversation is that John Middendorf claimed that he set speed records drilling 1/4" diameter X 1" holes on lead on El Cap for a Rawl Stud (split shank button head construction anchor) with his A5 hammer and Hurricane Hand Drill (also designed and sold by Deuce). 45(?) SECONDS. SECONDS. At least that's what my bad memory suggests he said.
Maybe what is needed is 1/4 hangers and bolts for the hand drilling?
Good stuff: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1298944&tn=0&mr=0
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jun 25, 2014 - 12:06pm PT
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Wood seems to be good for vibration
Agreed.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jun 25, 2014 - 12:18pm PT
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I use sport tape, the same for taping up for cracks, to grip and choke up on the handle. We have these titanium carpenters hammers that are a dream to swing. Light and efficient. I would buy a rock hammer engineered like this if one was available.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 25, 2014 - 12:45pm PT
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No A5/D5 Banquo?
Not yet. I will get one or borrow one if I can, otherwise when I get my method figured out, I'll ask you or someone to fill in the blanks for the A5/D5. I'll need several dimensions and at least two weights. The list above is the total weight without the sling.
There are several European hammers that we don't see here very often. The Salewa I have is an example, The Edelrid Hudson Hammer (670 g) is another. The European hammers seem to be lighter.
http://www.alpinsport-basis.de/Edelrid-Hudson-Hammer_1
I have a thread about 1/4" as opposed to 3/8" drills:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2190293/3-8-SDS-drills-faster-than-1-4-SDS
I'd like to know the details about the 45 second drill hole. I've heard this story before but have my doubts. If you hit twice a second that's 90 blows. For a 1.25" deep hole,that's 0.014 inches per blow which seems hard to believe. There could be unknown factors involved.
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couchmaster
climber
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Jun 25, 2014 - 01:24pm PT
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Shades of John Bachar from 2007 ! Here's the thread linked below with the speed record you were looking for Banquo. 47 seconds to drill and install a bolt on lead. Woot! Anyway, it appears that I'd caused the original thread to turn to piss by posting the Hurricane Hand Drill drilling manual Middendorf use to send out with his A5 drills, so I started this new one (link below). Middendorf posts about 1/2 way down as Duece4 and here's the quote regarding speed drilling: "But hey, what do I know, I only drilled a 1000 or so bolts in my time. Though my record of drilling an 1-1/4" long 1/4 bolt in granite in 47 seconds (drilling hole and placing bolt) is probably still a record, especially now that no one drills 1/4" anymore."
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=380464&tn=0&mr=0
Lots of interesting info by JM, Greg Barnes and other folks posts as well. As a reference to why that thread got started, back then people use to have dial up internet, which was slower than sh#t, much like a hand crank ice cream machine. As threads got longer and pictures got added, clicking on a thread might cause it to take 5 min to load for some poor souls. Maybe Piton Ron still has it, but dial up internet is uncommon these days.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Jun 25, 2014 - 02:33pm PT
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I once learned a way to tie a small simple loop of 1/2" webbing into the handle of my hammer. And by taping it securely into where you would like to hold the hammer. The loop needs to be just snug enough so that you will need to work your hand through this loop before making your final grip on the handle. I know that it doesn't sound like much but this will enable you to not have to grip the hammer with much effort at all. If you try it, you'll find that you can swing all day and with much less effort with the aid of this simple little tie in loop. This will make any hammer work better, but my favorite is the Chouinard Yosemite with the hickory handle.
To learn the folk song "John Henry" as a cadence for your drilling I think you will find will help facilitate making holes in those rocks!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 25, 2014 - 02:47pm PT
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Drilling technique definitely enters into the speed equation too beyond hammer weight. You have to keep the drill tip rotating for every blow just like a rotohammer.
I prefer the A5 hammer for drilling personally but then I swung a Vaughn 32oz for decades so weight isn't much of an issue.
I think that developing an active drill holder based on an impact driver model would yield even better efficiency since you like tinkering with this technology.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 25, 2014 - 05:25pm PT
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I think swinging a hammer efficiently without hurting yourself requires technique, a technique that most people never learn. I've worked around enough carpenters to know there is a right way and a wrong way. It would be interesting to watch or video a skilled hammerer and an average person for comparison.
As I have mentioned in other threads, I have searched for published research about hammer ergonomics but the only thing I have found was the series of studies that concluded a curved hatchet type handle was more comfortable. I don't like the study because they used college professors and students to swing the hammer.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Jun 25, 2014 - 05:55pm PT
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Always dig your topics Banquo!
I'm in the market for a hammer.
Super used to the BD but am open to others, and that Petzl is $70 right now.
I can't comment on weight and efficiency as I've pretty much only used the BD(style) but technique and a nice sharp bit sure help!
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209er
Social climber
Oakdale
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Jun 25, 2014 - 09:58pm PT
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Just my non-scientific experience and POV: After pinging away for hours one hot day over 30 years ago with a Salewa piton hammer with little to show despite having a bag full of sharpened bits, I figured there must be a better way. The next week at work I searched through industrial catalogues (no internet then, you offspring) and found this Estwing Drilling Hammer. I bought one, unhefted and untested, blindly driven by a firm conviction that something called a "drilling hammer" must have been designed to be part of a system to drill holes in rock. It was the last hammer I ever used to drill holes in rock, because it made bolt holes super fast. Case closed. For you data heads, this hammer weighs in at 1,300 grams, way off the charts.
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climber bob
Social climber
maine
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Jun 26, 2014 - 06:02am PT
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im with you..i used to hand drill with a mini sledge...until I got a hilti...the late dick Richardson could drill mighty fast...
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 26, 2014 - 06:50am PT
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Yep, I've had and used one of those drilling hammers. It was called a single jack back in the day because it could be swung with one hand as opposed to a double jack which required two hands. My dad was a topographer for the USGS and I have used one to drill the hole for a benchmark. 3/4" star drill if I recall correctly. The required 3" hole was a chore and whoever was there had to take a turn. He had the same steel handled Eastwing.
With a 3/8" carbide tipped drill, the tip can shatter when hit this hard.
Several years ago I bought a single jack with a wood handle and ground down the head with an angle grinder. It worked. I gave it to a friend to whom I owed a favor. He found it is too heavy to carry around so I got him a real hammer.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Jun 27, 2014 - 03:40am PT
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Back in the day, i was known as the fastest drill in the west :)
The 47 second 1/4" diameter 1.25" long buttonhead bolt record was at Chocise Stronghold in a rock (granite) near camp. Ideal conditions, drilling stright down, blowtube standing by. Officially timed with several witnesses.
Sandstone bolts took longer, as these were always 3/8"
On lead, the fastest sting of drilled holes was probably the "27 holes makes a pitch" on Route 66 on the Falls Wall. That pitch took just under 3 hours to complete (full 165' pitch). We hoped the black streak would be seam, but it turned out to be a completely blank section that required a ladder. It was slowed down a bit as my Rawl holder jammed and i was unable to change bits so i had to drill with an increasingly dull bit.
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Edge
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Jun 27, 2014 - 06:46am PT
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Dingus, in my experience I find I taprap more at the start to get the hole started and then wail away increasingly harder once the drill can track in the hole.
I suspect the heavy swing will be more productive by hand, reasoning that you can drive a hardened nail into concrete with a .22 charge, but you could taprap all day on it with a banana and all that will get you is the base for a smoothie.
Drilling on lead requires creativity, adaptability, and the three metals: carbide bits, iron hammer, and stainless steel testicles.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Jun 29, 2014 - 02:05am PT
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Hi DMT-
I think I wrote about the optimal technique in my bolt "treatise" I wrote for Climbing way back when (Climbing #99 or so?), and I think it might be available on bigwalls.net
But in a nutshell:
taptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptap is better. How you start the hole is critical, then holding a constant angle, but the number one thing is to hold the handle a bit loosely so you get a natural percussion of the drill which ejects the dust.
Holding not too loose to lose your angle, but not too tight which would prevent the natural percussion, is the key to fast drilling.
A grip on/grip off kind of thing, I reckon. Like the Karate kid in fast motion.
Flat chisel tip bits were my favourite.
cheers
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 1, 2014 - 01:57pm PT
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Drilling speed and hammer efficiency are different things. A very efficient car probably isn't very fast and a very fast car probably isn't very efficient. With a drilling hammer, I want some compromise between the two. I want it to be as fast as possible without running my arm out of gas before I am finished.
What is balance? Everybody seems to want a balanced hammer but there doesn't seem to be any definition of what balanced means for a hammer. My thought is that the center of gravity of the whole hammer should be aligned with the center of the striking surface. However, the CG is never at the striking surface but somewhere near the top of the handle. So, when the head strikes, there is some eccentricity between the striking force and the inertial force of the hammer mass. This force-times-distance makes the hammer want to rotate. This tendency to rotate or moment, must be resisted by the wrist.
I have taken a selection of the hammers on hand and quantified the eccentricity which to me is a measure of the hammer imbalance. There are other factors to consider such as hammer mass and handle length. A longer handle will reduce the force on the wrist if the hammer is gripped near the end of the handle. Rookie carpenters choke up on the handle but old pros don't perhaps for this reason. A lighter hammer will result in less moment so long as the speed is the same but people probably swing lighter hammers faster.
If you look at a worn hammer, you can see that the bottom of the striking face (nearest the handle) is usually more worn out because the person using the hammer will tend to hit as close to the CG as possible. I think my least balanced hammer is the OP and it can be easily seen that the bottom edge of the face is more banged up.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 1, 2014 - 02:11pm PT
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The numbers as CSV if anybody wants them.
,LOA,L,W,R,E,E/L,W*E,W*(E/L)
Omega Pacific Wall Hammer,13.25,11.75,31.8,24.8,2.586477987,0.220125786,82.25,7
G.I. Surplus Yosemite Hammer,11.5,10.875,25.2,22.4,1.208333333,0.111111111,30.45,2.8
Chouinard,11.625,10.8125,25.2,21.1,1.759176587,0.162698413,44.33125,4.1
McDevitt,13.5625,12.875,26.2,22.7,1.719942748,0.133587786,45.0625,3.5
Grivel Thor,13.1875,12.375,16,12.2,2.9390625,0.2375,47.025,3.8
Salewa Rockhammer,10.3125,9.5,16.8,15.6,0.678571429,0.071428571,11.4,1.2
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