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Ryan Crochiere
Advanced climber
anywhere, USA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 6, 2001 - 01:32am PT
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While climbing is becoming a popular sport in the US I have to wonder how available should detailed information be to a few climbing areas. I must personally admit that Im a guidebook fiend however watching the fumbly and bumbly pull into Zion, a park with few trade routes and many more scary adventure routes I have to wonder how misguided and unaware folks are. I dont care to take on an elitist attitude or any thing but I do believe that some places should be left out of the books (El Gran Trono Blaco) and leave a climber who fiends enough for adventure to use there skill of research and smoozing beta at the bar. Not only are areas being used by people not prepated for certain situations, but they are also being trashed and eroded faster then they could ever recuperate (Franconia Notch, Wind Rivers). In this world of information I believe there should still remain a few climbing areas with the true adventure of a bushwack and some information collecting skills. Cheers to all my climbing brothers and sisters and have fun climbing whatever it is whereever it is.
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David
Novice climber
Mill Valley
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2001 - 10:54am PT
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I understand where you're coming from but I'm not sure it would be fair to describe Zion as adventure climbing. I did my first wall there(I suppose that makes me on of the bumblies you refer to). I seem to remember a sequence of events that went something like this: Get on shuttle bus at 7am...drive down smooth paved road for half an hour...have bus driver drop us off at the trail head...hike 100 feet to beginning of climb. Then...while you climb, watch bus load after bus load of tourists stop below your route and gawk through binoculars.
Now don't get me wrong...I think Zion is a magical place and once you're a few hundred feet off the deck you can certainly get lost in your own vertical world of sandstone. However, to call it a wild adventure destination isn't really being fair. More beta or guidebooks is simply not going to change what is already another Yosemite.
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bushwack king
Intermediate climber
Otto, NC
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 7, 2001 - 05:43pm PT
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There's plenty of guidebooks out there. if adventure is to be preserved in this world, the best thing any of us could do would be to drop our egos at the trailhead on the way out and stop publishing beta for beautiful, obscure places. Anyone who really wants to find out about these places can bloody well buy a few beers for their beta, or just slog in there and have their own first ascent. There's plenty of Disneyland out there for those who require it--let's leave a few adventures for future choss hounds..........
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Brent
Novice climber
Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2001 - 12:48pm PT
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Is someone focing us to pick through topos to gleen all the beta we can from them??? Walk up to the Nose or whatever with no topo and just start climbing like Harding did. Adventure is where you find it. In Zion don't they have that big note book/s with topos from a lot of FA's. I used to live in Gunnison, CO for awhile and started climbing in the Black Canyon NP where beta used to be hard to come by. I found a fellow drugged him with alchohol, and got copies of all of his topos. Before this you had to use your nose to find the start of a route and the route itself. This fellow became a very good friend. Turns out he wrote the guidebook for the BCNP. I used to give him piles of crap for writing the book saying he was destroying the ambiance and adventure of the place. His most valid response (he had many defenses) was that if he didn't someone else would, and at least he cared enough about the place to document it accurately. The book is not full of "supertopos" (which I love Chris, and have used often). The adventure is still high, now you just know what grassy crack to start up. As climbing continues to grow you attract all types...someone hate topos, some love them. As long as there are people who want beta before they launch there will be people who want to document. As far as being "qualified" to climb a certain route, this makes me laugh...having a topo for a route on the Porcelin, Falls, or Firefall wall gives you no better chance of getting up it if you don't possess the requisite skill.
Sorry I'm long winded.
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Two Cents
Advanced climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2001 - 02:43pm PT
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I really get sick of hearing this same old tired tale "you should have to find your beta in the bar by buying XXX person beers. I have no problem with this approach, but I know that most of these dudes with the info would think I was some weirdo gay guy and freak out if I came up and started hitting on them. Plus there's a lot of bars and a lot of faces out there. Do these guys wear a t-shirt with "I'm the man with the secret info?" Nope. So even indentifying them is a pretty good stretch sometimes. Yeah, maybe if you know someone who knows someone who... you might get the dudes name with the goods. Seems like this kinda sucks you into today's social circus climbing scene, though. What if you just want to be left alone and do your routes, no noise, no press, no fuss, no muss? I guess when it comes down to it, you could just skip the beta like the old guys and approach it like they did. What would people say if you lined up at the base of the Nose with two weeks of foot and 1200' of fixed line, plus 100 bolts and just did it like you wanted? Not good.
For what it's worth, guidebooks are gold to help keep people from assuming they're the first schmucks on a chunk of rock, so maybe it might help preserve the adventure some instead of having to listen to the old "well, we didn't know it had been climbed with a fishing reel and an old pair of underwear back in the day, so we bolted that sucker." At Cochise Stronghold in southern Arizona, this is being played out in spades. The last guidebook edition for the place has a note in it "another climber says this (new) route duplicates a portion of a previous ascended route, but declined to give details." The old school southern AZ climbers refuse to give any info about their FAs (and some of them have a tons of lines out there), so what's happening is these new dudes come out and start up a "route", bolting the thing to pieces, because they have no idea the line has been done and they're too ambitios or arrogant to assume that such a choice line has already been done in (usually) impeccable style. What's the solution? The "good ol' boy" system of passing route beta by mouth just ain't working in this sense. My personal feeling about this "duplicate ascent" thing is that it's a crying shame, especially in a place like Cochise, but that none of these guys keeping quiet about their routes can complain if someone does a "first ascent" up their lines. There's a good way to keep them from bolting your proud line into the dirt and it's called a guidebook, for good or bad.
On with the show...
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Another history BUMP!!!
I love "pulishing" in the thread title!
Who the hell are these people?
Ryan Crochiere
I recognize...uh....ONE!
Good ol' C Mac, trying to get his site up and running.
Wow, dark ages bump for sure!
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Matt M
Trad climber
Alamo City
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The vast majority of "new climbers" don't venture to far off the beaten path regardless of a guidebook or not. If that approach gets much more than 20 minutes, your chances of feeling "crowded" drop considerably.
"Secret" areas, in this age, or often just that because they require some effort to get to.
While guidebooks MAY increase traffic a bit I really don't see it becoming an issue. The ONLY place you see crowding because of a "larger" climber population is on the entry level climbs. Think Manure Pile Buttress, Sunshine wall at Smith, Less than 5.7 at the Gunks etc etc.
As stated above, the "guidebook haters" are usually annoyed because someone didn't have to "work as hard as them" to get to the same spot. They don't like to share.
With a family, work and all the other things that fight for my time, a well written guidebook gets me where I want to go quickly, saves me the epics that the wife hates and gets me climbing more routes.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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I've heard all the excuses before.
It still erodes adventure inexorably.
Seldom are people truly honest about all the motives for publishing guides as they are often far more selfish than those stated.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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I just enjoy sitting on the toilet thinking about areas I could go to, if I had the inside scoop. Not that I'll ever get there, but I definitely think about going to new and interesting climbing areas a lot.
nice historical bump
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
Oakland
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Two cents, Absolute $$$$
Wow, just realized how old this thread is!!
That Cochise syndrome is playing out in a lot of places. While younger climbers generally have much respect for the hard men who put up FAs at their local crag, it's kind of hard to give respect properly (don't put a bolt here, I climbed it bolt free in '78) when it's never been documented outside the local hard man club.
This doesn't mean I feel all routes need to be reported, hardly.
I personally don't know what the best solution is for this situation but it seems a bit childish to moan when your route gets published as Unknown, Unknown FA and the wrong grade, if you had an opportunity to provide some info to the author and declined.
It can go both ways, an author can be to blame too for not putting in much effort to get this information, so like I said, not sure what the perfect solution is.
I also think there is plenty of adventure climbing out there to be had, most people just want directions to a route and to know what gear to bring.
I too sit on the toilet a lot and thing about how rad those routes look in places I'll probably never get to. My Chamonix book is practically stained brown.
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
Transporter Room 2
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Guidebooks have their place.
So do obscurities. It's all good.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Problem is they're more interested in the beta than the history.
Check my link.
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Paulina
Trad climber
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Awesome early thread resurrections recently. Goes to show the eternal questions in climbing:
1) what are the best moderate routes in your awesome area?
2) how can we keep the dweebs out of the best routes in our awesome area?
LOL!
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
Oakland
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Problem is they're more interested in the beta than the history.
Not all of 'em. The best guide book I know of is Jerry Handren's Red Rocks book. Granted I don't have a huge collection but this one stands out due to not only FA info, but the historical perspective it offers. There are multiple in-depth articles about the people, times and various methods used in the development of that area. That book should be the standard setter for guides, imho.
but yeah, you;re probably right that most are interested solely in the beta which is lame.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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It isn't yours if you don't have the title to the land.
The definition of local varies considerably.
If you want adventure, don't buy the guidebook.
So many guidebooks have so little information that they add to the adventure. A name and a rating does not give you much to work with.
It is a bad idea for women to hit on old school climbing men in the bars to weedle beta out of them. Some of them will expect services for their services. Buy the guidebook and the guy independently.
Some guidebooks were published ostensibly to "spread out" the impact. Wasn't a truly effective strategy clearly demonstrating that short approaches and easy grades will attract crowds.
The one exception I've noticed is harder grades will be worked to death when easily accessible for top-roping.
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BrentA
Gym climber
Roca Rojo
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I am still here. I love adventure more than ever.
There are no stopping the bolts, topos, or Palin.
Sad
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