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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 24, 2006 - 12:32am PT
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If there is a limit to what a human hand can stick to and a human foot, then ratings have to be closed ended.
If super thin 5.13 slabs have no discernable features, and overhangs are only feasable by virtue of discernable features. Then there are no 5.14 climbs.
It follows from the position that 5.13 is only a series of what was formerly known as 5.12 moves, consequently then 5.13d is only lots of very difficult 5.12 moves, crimpy moves even, but only measurable as 5.12. (a move equals one limbs movement to a new hold)
Further, that 5.14 is only a series of very hard 5.13 moves. But if 5.13 has been established for years, and we know it is already 5.12 hard moves, then the YDS system cannot extend to 5.14, or if it does, it's just another way of saying 'here's a lot of really hard 5.12 moves).
Try not to use soft 5.12 climbs as your exemplars.
Thoughts?
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Don't let go
Trad climber
Yorba Linda, CA
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Jul 24, 2006 - 01:23am PT
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When I climb 5.15, you'll be sorry!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2006 - 01:39am PT
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I am at your disposal to review any pics of said 5.15.
:)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 24, 2006 - 01:46am PT
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Yup, there are no millionaires nor billionaires either, just guys with numbers on accounts.
and hey, if a guy can run 100 yards in under 10 seconds, isn't running a mile in under 4 minutes kinda slacker?
But maybe those sport climbers have transgressed the natural limits of human crimping. They probably do it by using (or giving up) drugs of some sort!
let's lynch em!
peace
karl
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Jul 24, 2006 - 04:31am PT
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5.16 is scheduled for September, when those new Bazooka Joe shoes come in.
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Bill
climber
San Francisco
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Jul 24, 2006 - 05:11am PT
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"If there is a limit to what a human hand can stick to and a human foot, then ratings have to be closed ended."
This begs the question of whether or not the limits of what the human hand or foot can stick to defines the limits of difficulty.
"If super thin 5.13 slabs have no discernable features, and overhangs are only feasable by virtue of discernable features. Then there are no 5.14 climbs."
No, you can only conclude that feasable overhangs are not super thin 5.13 slabs.
"It follows from the position that 5.13 is only a series of what was formerly known as 5.12 moves, consequently then 5.13d is only lots of very difficult 5.12 moves, crimpy moves even, but only measurable as 5.12. (a move equals one limbs movement to a new hold)"
Um, no, it doesn't follow.
"Further, that 5.14 is only a series of very hard 5.13 moves. But if 5.13 has been established for years, and we know it is already 5.12 hard moves, then the YDS system cannot extend to 5.14, or if it does, it's just another way of saying 'here's a lot of really hard 5.12 moves)."
Whah?
"Try not to use soft 5.12 climbs as your exemplars."
Ok.
"Thoughts?"
My head hurts.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 24, 2006 - 11:08am PT
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Limits do exist, there are physiological limits which people can train to, but without non-natural assistance, cannot exceed.
Interesting to read about Landis' melt-down ride. The Phonak team physiologist determined that his body just needed a rest day, and imposed it. Anyone ever have that happen to them? I have, on long trips to the mountain. That's why we say "listen to your body". This phenomena had disappeared, it is suspected, due to the use of various chemical enhancements (doping) which provided a boost to the participants of the Tour. It is interesting to consider the use of our knowledge of the body, and ways of altering its behavior, as part of the sport.
Jay Gould used baseball as an example, particularly the fact that batters who hit 0.400 or greater no longer exist. As the sport matured, and the atheletes became better, both pitchers and hitters, the limits of performance were reached.
Lately, a historical analysis of home run hitters definitely shows how small advantages of steroid use altered the "normal" progression of a power hitter. Baseball is wonderful because of all the seemingly mindless statistics that have been gathered through the decades.
Climbing may also be like that... as the popularity of the sport increased, better atheletes started to participate, pushing the difficulty of climbs to the limits. There was a very large advance in difficulty levels of climbs in the 60's and then again in the 70's, with a tapering off in the 80's and 90's. This could be attributed to the fact that we are sampling the very high "tails" of the distribution of human capability, that is, the elite climbers who are a very small majority of us.
In climbing, the measure is difficult, simply because any standardization of climbing is resisted (see the thread on "5.10 standards"). However, few of the truely high range climbs put up in the Valley see many repeats. And fewer of those type of climbs are being put up.
It may very well be that 5.12 difficulty is the limit, with 5.13 being a string of 5.12 moves... many less difficult climbs are rated harder even though individual moves are "easy", think Meat Grinder often described as a series of 5.9 moves, or Reed's Direct which is rated 5.9 but often seems a lot more difficult because of the sustained nature of the climb.
With the very strong insentive to push the limits of climbing higher, and the marvelous preparation that many of the young climbers posess today, it is revealing that so few 5.14's are claimed, and and even fewer 5.15s. Even bouldering seems to have topped out in difficulty, which further supports the idea of limits being reached.
Many will decry the thought that humans are physically limited. But it is true. Our burden is knowing that on an intellectual level. We should be thankful that the consequence of our physical limitations are a reduced self-esteem rather than ending up as some preditor's dinner...
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Jul 24, 2006 - 11:41am PT
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I have always been inspired by the story "The greatest climber in the world" though it has been years since I have read it.
Tronc Felieu sitting and observing the boulder over time, comes to see the stone at increasingly finer scale until the texture reveals holds that could be seen no other way.
Maybe the rock stars of tomorrow will meditate long enough to be able to see the hidden jugs, then like the many animals that can bond with the texture, they will scamper successfully on walls of blankness that spit us off today.
Peter
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2006 - 11:47am PT
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"Limits do exist, there are physiological limits which people can train to, but without non-natural assistance, cannot exceed."
thx Ed, a better way of putting the general principle.
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Richard Large
climber
where you least expect
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Jul 24, 2006 - 11:49am PT
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We are obsolete. Homo Cyberneticus: the next great surge in ratings.
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pFranzen
Boulder climber
Portland, OR
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Jul 24, 2006 - 11:52am PT
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"Many will decry the thought that humans are physically limited. But it is true."
Sure it is, but people will never believe that the limit has been reached. Someone will always train even harder to break the 100m or marathon record, or bench press another few ounces, or free The Nose a few minutes faster than the last person.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 24, 2006 - 11:54am PT
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Look at the declining differences in winning and non-winning times of various Olympic sports - they passed seconds long ago and are now down to time differences of tens and hundredths of a second. One can only assume they likewise are quickly discovering the limits of [unaltered] human performance. There will never be a sub-two minute mile.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Jul 24, 2006 - 12:00pm PT
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I don't buy this theory at all. Simply makes no sense or wasn't thought out. The entire theory rests on this particular line: "If super thin 5.13 slabs have no discernable features, and overhangs are only feasable by virtue of discernable features. Then there are no 5.14 climbs."
Thing is, slabs are not even vertical. You're not accounting for weight, a thing called gravity, friction, etc. Mainly, not accounting for basic physics. There are simply all kinds of holes in this logic.
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fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
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Jul 24, 2006 - 12:03pm PT
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If super thin 5.13 slabs have no discernable features, and overhangs are only feasable by virtue of discernable features. Then there are no 5.14 climbs.
You're one of those people who thinks that harder routes just have smaller and smaller holds, aren't you?
Harder climbing requires precision timing of difficult dynamic movement under stress (due to fatigue)---it is usually not just strong fingers and small holds.
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Kevster
Trad climber
Evergreen, CO
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Jul 24, 2006 - 12:03pm PT
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There are physiological limits to what the human body can do, but is climbing really limited to skin and bone? Look at figure skating or gymnastics, kids are doing things today that were not even dreamed of 20 years ago. The real limitations in climbing are not even close to being reached....just excuses for the meek to stop trying. It is easy for a 5.12 climber to say that "it will never progress past 5.14" but that is not what 5.14 climbers say.
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fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
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Jul 24, 2006 - 12:08pm PT
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Climbing is a young sport and it is changing rapidly. A few decades from now, they'll laugh at what we think of as "hard".
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Jul 24, 2006 - 12:15pm PT
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The climbing population today is too small to know what standards can be achieved.
The more mature sports have had decades of development where talent from a very broad base can be identified early.
How many people of African descent are climbing?
How many climbers are over 6'10"?
How many climbing shoe manufacturers make size 16 shoe?
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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Jul 24, 2006 - 12:20pm PT
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And it's amazing just how little one needs to enhance one's endocrin system in order to jump up in power, endurance, and strength to weight ratio.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 24, 2006 - 12:30pm PT
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First of all, there comes along a climber genius like Mozart every once in awhile that is stronger and smarter. The piano only has so many keys and fingers can only move so fast but a genius can do things with limited resources that we can't imagine.
Second, just as knowledge about training and nutrition (and not living like a total waste case) has advanced climbing in recent year (plus the greater numbers participating) we can't know where the next advances might break through from.
I happen to have inside information that Tommy Caldwell's accident was not as it seemed. He was sharpening his fingers to fit in the tiny crack under the great roof of the Nose when he accidentally went overboard in one of them. That's dedication.
DNA technology is ripining to the extent that it's probably folly to think that 100 years from now (if we haven't killed ourselves off) that folks won't be living in bodies re-engineered for strength, intelligence, and longevity from the inside.
Peace
Karl
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taco bill
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Jul 24, 2006 - 12:42pm PT
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The Tortoise challenged Achilles to a race, claiming that he would win as long as Achilles gave him a small head start. Achilles laughed at this, for of course he was a mighty warrior and swift of foot, whereas the Tortoise was heavy and slow.
“How big a head start do you need?” he asked the Tortoise with a smile.
“Ten meters,” the latter replied.
Achilles laughed louder than ever. “You will surely lose, my friend, in that case,” he told the Tortoise, “but let us race, if you wish it.”
“On the contrary,” said the Tortoise, “I will win, and I can prove it to you by a simple argument.”
“Go on then,” Achilles replied, with less confidence than he felt before. He knew he was the superior athlete, but he also knew the Tortoise had the sharper wits, and he had lost many a bewildering argument with him before this.
“Suppose,” began the Tortoise, “that you give me a 10-meter head start. Would you say that you could cover that 10 meters between us very quickly?”
“Very quickly,” Achilles affirmed.
“And in that time, how far should I have gone, do you think?”
“Perhaps a meter – no more,” said Achilles after a moment's thought.
“Very well,” replied the Tortoise, “so now there is a meter between us. And you would catch up that distance very quickly?”
“Very quickly indeed!”
“And yet, in that time I shall have gone a little way farther, so that now you must catch that distance up, yes?”
“Ye-es,” said Achilles slowly.
“And while you are doing so, I shall have gone a little way farther, so that you must then catch up the new distance,” the Tortoise continued smoothly.
Achilles said nothing.
“And so you see, in each moment you must be catching up the distance between us, and yet I – at the same time – will be adding a new distance, however small, for you to catch up again.”
“Indeed, it must be so,” said Achilles wearily.
“And so you can never catch up,” the Tortoise concluded sympathetically.
“You are right, as always,” said Achilles sadly – and conceded the race.
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