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briham89
Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
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Jul 10, 2013 - 12:26am PT
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Cool Mark, thanks for the tip!
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 10, 2013 - 11:20am PT
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Bump for cleaner walls and challenge!
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Jul 10, 2013 - 02:09pm PT
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Thanks for explaining how to remove Copperheads!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Jul 10, 2013 - 03:24pm PT
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Mark, dig it.
Dark arts have been in the shadows for a long time.
For a flat pasted (where there is very little crack above or below), have you noticed any difference in peeling it by starting at the bottom vs. the top? Preferred starting point?
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 10, 2013 - 03:43pm PT
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The ones that are flat pasted into very little crack are usually the heads that are in appropriate placements and are heads that I don't remove.
The hardest ones to remove are those where some bozo has really plastered it into a deep crack since its hard to reach back there and still get leverage.
It doesn't bother me at all to actually try to carve a little nut placement or repeatedly hammer in a beak or pin to make a hand placed nut, beak or pin placement either.
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nopantsben
climber
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Jul 10, 2013 - 04:18pm PT
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It doesn't bother me at all to actually try to carve a little nut placement or repeatedly hammer in a beak or pin to make a hand placed nut, beak or pin placement either. Why does that not bother you? It's chiseling where there would be head placement, no?
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 10, 2013 - 04:51pm PT
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Yup, and others will decry the repeated placement and removal of the head, and the subsequent destruction of the placement. So the head, fixed, yet crappy, requiring no skill to clip or move past, remains. Might as well drill a bolt or rivet, eh?
Which would you prefer?
And then, let's talk about a chiseled head placement in the first place. Manufactured nut, or hand placed beak, rivet or bolt? Which would you prefer?
All in all, it's a moot point since I've been able to move past 98% of all of the heads I've removed via clean means and the other 2% have required a hammered beak or pin.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Jul 10, 2013 - 05:01pm PT
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What about removing dikHeds... There are some of those on the walls too. Especially the european type.
Sarcasm people.... Just lighten up.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Jul 10, 2013 - 05:24pm PT
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Which would you prefer?
Virgin Stone, place my own heads, then have my cleaner remove them with our butter knives.
Keeps the adventure found in heading up to the next team.
Edit: For sure Mark, I dig your efforts and agree with every single photo you have posted here, showing obvious placements.
Hell, bunch of those could be 20 years old, and have just stood the test of time.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 10, 2013 - 05:34pm PT
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Absolutely, Mucci, I'm all for it, I'd love to place my own heads, in legitimate head placements. This thread though, it mainly about removing heads from placement where they don't belong in the first place, removing them from easy cam and nut placements.
For example, last year on Lost in America, I was really expecting a good battle on the Fly or Die pitch. I really wanted to suffer and be scared. I was severely disappointed to find it pretty much an A0 clip up. All the heads were fixed and there was even a 3/8" bolt in between two rivets. I felt totally cheated.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 10, 2013 - 05:52pm PT
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Nice video, Mark. Lots of extra heads lying around on the walls these days. I think you need to make a run up Mescalito.
Now, in case any of you wants to know how to place heads, here is where you can find out:
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/dr-pitons-heading-tips/106076091
Maybe you want to make a cross posting there, Mark - tell us how to take them out, too!
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 10, 2013 - 06:10pm PT
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I absolutely care NOT to teach people how to place heads. Obviously people don't even know where a head is appropriate or not. I surely don't want to teach them to weld them anymore than they already are.
BTW, Max and I have plans for the first three or five of Mescalito this fall...
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m_jones
Trad climber
Carson City, NV
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Jul 11, 2013 - 01:49am PT
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nopantsben
climber
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Jul 11, 2013 - 04:00pm PT
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So the head, fixed, yet crappy, requiring no skill to clip or move past, remains. Might as well drill a bolt or rivet, eh?
What's your thing with skill? Routes require the skill they require. There is no need for some police to go up there to make sure appropriate skill is required for a given route. And there is huge difference between a rivet and head.
It's clear that trade routes like LiA do not provide the most challenge. Is that news?
And then, let's talk about a chiseled head placement in the first place. Manufactured nut, or hand placed beak, rivet or bolt? Which would you prefer?
rivet. And there is a huge difference between a fully manufactured head placement in a blank corner or a little help from a chisel to avoid a rivet. The good thing about aidclimbing is that people can do whatever they want as long as they don't drill on established routes and keep them clean.
The photos you show where you moved past heads with "easy cam placements", all have clean gear that was probably not available when those heads were placed or the people didn't have them. Or they didn't have the balls to place the micronuts. And what's the big deal anyway? Why not just leave the head in place and clip it (or not) and move past. You can always place your cam (as a backup), no? not enough fun? There are enough routes that are not too hard and still have virtually no fixed gear because they aren't trade routes.
The problem is taking care of itself without hordes of people with butterknives and 5 sets of offsets, because none of those heads last forever (another difference to a rivet) and may never be replaced if they're unnecessary.
Removing deadheads and tat is really nice, and replacing anchors is great too, thanks and respect for that. Thanks for writing the TR's too, I just don't like the fixed heads are lame and people nail too much yadda yadda.
There should be some room for anarchy up there.
I like nailing.
-nopants
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jul 11, 2013 - 04:35pm PT
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First, you approach them, then when they are coiled up you throw a blanket over them... that confuses them. When they crawl out, then pin their heads down and place them a fair distance away from your land in West Virginia. My cousins in WVA taught me that.
Apologies Mark, I couldn't resist (EDIT - considering your Thread Head), and I am from California, but I do have a bit of land (one acre from my late mother's farm) in West Virginia, first and only place I have ever seen a copperhead.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 11, 2013 - 05:34pm PT
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Climbing big walls is all about the challenge. Placing the gear is the challenge. Quite often fixed heads remove that challenge. Removing the heads restores the challenge.
Done deal as far as I'm concerned.
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Offset
climber
seattle
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Jul 11, 2013 - 05:39pm PT
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climbing a wall may or may not be about the challenge. placing the gear may or may not be the challenge for said wall climber....
everyone's got their reasons....
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nopantsben
climber
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Jul 11, 2013 - 05:40pm PT
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You got all very good points Ian. I agree, especially about Mark's right to do this. Mark can do whatever he wants, of course. If he did this without all the finger pointing and internet bragging afterwards, I would find it cool even. I still respect it. But the moral high horse blah blah rubs me the wrong way, definitely.
I don't think trip reports are lame, or talking about your climbs.
It's just this dissing of other random climbers that did something that Mark does not approve of on a trade route that gets me. Even if they have no name in his reports, I find that unnecessary.
Mark should climb routes that are challenging enough for him without his chisels, there are plenty.
Mark gets a lot of credit on this site for good reason, but sometimes the audience here is a bit biased depending on who says what. If some Euro guy had come along removing heads from trade routes and had then posted those photos and summit trash exhibitions and adding bolts to anchors for bivies... oh oh.
btw, just to make sure I don't get misunderstood. I heard from many friends that Mark is a great guy to hang with and climb with, which I bet is true, and this is nothing personal agains him.
regarding Zod and Dihedral.
TC did not add bolts next to cracks on Dihedral Wall, that was someone else.
edit: false info here as ammon points out below.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 11, 2013 - 05:52pm PT
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Another thing I'm trying to do is to instill a respect for the next party coming up the route. If a given route is rate 5.9 A4, I'll bet that party want to climb 5.9 and A4. If the A4 were all fixed, isn't it totally legitimate for that party to feel cheated? If the route is covered in tat slings, and various debris, doesn't the next party deserve to feel cheated?
The whole of the Yosemite Climbing Experience philosophy is for subsequent ascents to be able to climb the route in much the same fashion as the first ascent climbed it. Fixing the entire route, or the hard difficult pitches, certainly robs subsequent parties of that doesn't it?
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