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thekidcormier
Gym climber
squamish, b.c.
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 16, 2013 - 04:02pm PT
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Im wondering if any one has imput on the topic of resting the kit on a fifi while solo wall climbing . I recently gave the system ago and was thoroughly impressed with the results. There are definitely some risks to using this system but I believe with proper anchor management as well as use of rope bag these risks can be minimized and allow a solo climber to cover more ground quickly and efficiently.
pros:
faster
eliminate having to haul
your bags meet you halfway
cons:
more complex
potentially dangerous
doesn't work if you're hauling more than 3 quarters your body weight
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Evel
Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
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Feb 16, 2013 - 04:06pm PT
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This is exactly what the Vermin Freight Hook was designed for. Now if Forrest would just start making them again.
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thekidcormier
Gym climber
squamish, b.c.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 16, 2013 - 04:42pm PT
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The reason this is potentially dangerous is because in the event of a lead fall the lead line could snag the FIFI and prematurely dislodge it, either shock loading the leaders haul loop or back up knot if using the continuous loop system.
The way I have been setting my system up to avoid this problem is isolating the haulbag from the rope bag . Haul bag on one side of the anchor on a sling so it's abit below the anchor and the rope bag on the other side with the hauling flaked in the bottom and the lead line on top.
Has anyone else around here had much experience using this method?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Feb 16, 2013 - 04:52pm PT
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Here's the system I used when I solo'd Native Son:
I tag up the solo tag rack, which consists of the top of the haul line, and the top of the separate mini-haul line which is attached to the piglet on the left. Not shown is all the extra gear which hangs from the solo tag rack, which I can pull up as needed. The mini-haul pigls is about half body weight. When I rap down to clean the pitch, up goes the mini-haul "for free". Works well on steep/overhanging pitches.
You can see the piglet hangs from a fifi. This was quite terrifying for me, but I have since invented one solution to solve it, and also heard another solution.
Without my solutions, I rejected the double tagging as being not only too scary, but also too cumbersome. This is because I was hauling a full-size pig as well. If you were only hauling a half-body-weight pig, or maybe 60% body-weight, this would work well.
But honestly, even with the solutions, it's not worth it! There is too much crap going on all over the place, just to save the bother of hauling an extra eighty pounds or so. It seemed quicker and easier to me just to haul the damn thing afterwards, add it to the main load.
The scary part, of course, is what happens if the piglet somehow comes off the fifi.
Solution #1: The slippery overhand knot. I showed Mark Hudon how to do this, and he has made some kickass videos showing how it works. This is knott shown in the drawing below because I hadn't invented it yet. You would also put a slippery overhand knot in the lead rope above the solo tag rack.
Solution #2: A breakable point of attachment to you or your rack should the piglet suddenly take the plunge. Knott exactly safe for anyone below you, however.
I've solo'd El Cap eight times, and I used the solo tag rack every time. But I did away with the mini-haul going up as I rap down to clean. Just not worth the extra time and hassle and fifi hook and danger. Easier to just haul the damn thing.
Give it a try and see. You might like it, but you might find it too much bother like I did.
Edit: I see I redid this sketch in 2003, and I added the transient slip-knot backup crab above the mini-haul. That is indeed the slippery overhand knot. There is also one above the solo tag rack, but it's not labelled.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Pollock Pines, California
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Feb 16, 2013 - 04:53pm PT
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no matter how you look at It,
or about It,
there's a lot of garbage between
us and serenity,
so a simple fifi hook on a coordalette
shouldn't upset no one whithin our
understood cosmos.
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Paul Brennan
Trad climber
Ireland
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Feb 16, 2013 - 05:49pm PT
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Bloody hell Pete, that diagram just gave me a whopper of a headache trying to understand it.... Beginning to think I'm probably too stupid for wall climbing.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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Feb 16, 2013 - 05:58pm PT
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Remote control gates/latches are right around the corner.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Feb 16, 2013 - 06:22pm PT
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Remote control gates/latches are right around the corner.
Really?
I've been thinking this for quite a while now.
Prod.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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Feb 16, 2013 - 06:38pm PT
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Only the shadow knows - I have no clue really!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Feb 16, 2013 - 07:08pm PT
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Paul - sometimes being too stupid to quit is exactly what you need to be!
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Feb 16, 2013 - 07:24pm PT
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Kid, you're going to die, that's the wrong Fifi to use. More later, I have something I have to do for the next few hours.
Oh, forget it, just got to that link Prod posted.
Actually, that diagram, if you look at it and study it a bit is quite elegant. The system is complicated but wonderful.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 16, 2013 - 08:40pm PT
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Poor idea in my opinion.
1)If you use a static haul rope and the bag detaches you are in for a massive jolt. You would want to seriously consider using a dynamic rope to haul.
2)If you are going to rappel back down to clean you can lower out the haulbag and avoid the mandatory swing that comes with any sort of diagonal or sideways climbing and a Fifi release. You have no control over the free swinging haulbag.
3)If you plan on trying to do a big counterweight haul once you tension and release the haulbag you are at the mercy of that haul line unless you want to employ a second rope or clip into the lead rope in some way.
4) You should carry a ropebag for the haul line because a stack at the bag doesn't give you very many options if it feeds out too easily or otherwise gets fouled up. One rope bag is enough of a pain in the ass to want to lug along two in the name of efficiency.
Fifi hooks are very useful for small bags and were originally used as proposed for heavily fixed artificial routes in the Dolomites climbed stacatto style. This technique involves the use of several rope tethers to maintain connection with three or four placements at all times. As the leader moves up, back cleaning continuously, the next belay will be reached and the haulbag released as proposed.
I had a small haulbag roll off Guano Ledge on the Leaning Tower when my buddy Fig was just short of reaching the top of original pitch #6. It was his first wall and even though he was on a bolt ladder the situation got epic quickly and they don't make haul loops like they used to!
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thekidcormier
Gym climber
squamish, b.c.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 16, 2013 - 08:50pm PT
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Thanks for the link prod. Looks like a great idea. Still trying to figure out exactly how it works though.
Thanks for the input Steve. Some things to be aware of for sure
My method appears to be much more dangerous then marks. I guess I need to figure out how to rig this slippery knot system .
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Feb 16, 2013 - 08:58pm PT
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The key in tying the slippery overhand backup is to NOT open the gate of the carabiner that you are tying the slipknots through!
If you pass the rope through the carabiner by opening the gate, instead of doubling it through by not opening the gate, it ain't gonna work.
And you are certain to do this at least TWICE until you realize what you're doing wrong!
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Feb 16, 2013 - 10:09pm PT
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The slippery knot is simple to tie and makes hauling off a fifi safe, since the knot holds in only one direction, but pulls thru the other direction when you tug on it. Mark showed me how to use it, thank you sir. Thus if the haul bag falls off, the knot will hold it from going anywhere, but if you pull on the haul line from up above, the knot comes undone and pulls free, then you counter haul as you rap the lead line. Sweet system for when your bags are not to heavy.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Feb 16, 2013 - 10:42pm PT
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The diagram is too complex for me also but I love the idea of eliminating hauling. What about doing this with a two to one pulley system so the haul bag can weigh more than you do?
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thekidcormier
Gym climber
squamish, b.c.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 16, 2013 - 11:03pm PT
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Thanks for the replies guys.
Im planning on doing smaller, easier walls,fairly fast (5-8 pitches per day) 2.5 days worth of water max. So ill be resting my whole kit (80ish lb) on the fifi, instead orlf a tag bag as per mark and pete.
Studly- so light enough to counterweight as i rap the lead line.
don- i dont know of a two to one system that works with out constantly reactivating. to be honest i dont think one exists.
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BooYah
Social climber
Ely, Nv
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Feb 17, 2013 - 12:35am PT
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Give it a shot, in various configurations.
Experimentation is Key. Back yourself up & try things.
You could be the next Hudon. That guy has solid tips.
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