99 pounds of plutonium now on Mars...

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fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 6, 2012 - 01:49am PT
http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/multimedia/images/

"Curiosity" has landed..... intact.

Pretty impressive watching mission control in those final 30 minutes.

I was not around for the first moon landings. I will probably not be around for the first human Mars missions if we ever get that far.

I for one, hope our species can get it together enough to realize that there's more to life than this precious blue rock to which we now all cling, quite precariously.

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 6, 2012 - 01:59am PT
But it would not be all we have if we spent a fraction of the resource we use to destroy one another on moving forward instead.

We could have sent 100 of these things for what we spent on Afghanistan this year.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Aug 6, 2012 - 02:03am PT
earth is a living entity and we are killing her


we too can look like Mars
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 6, 2012 - 02:07am PT
Wouldn't say we are killing her.. we are certainly killing off a lot of her children. Our brothers and sisters upon whom our lives depend. For whom we are held responsible.

Should we continue we will either wipe ourselves off the planet completely or at best send ourselves back to the stone-age to start over.

Either way life on this planet will go on.
Dos XX

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Aug 6, 2012 - 08:46am PT
Geeks score!

[Click to View YouTube Video]
mcreel

climber
Barcelona
Aug 6, 2012 - 09:06am PT
I'm vacationing in the Western U.S., as I do every summer. It's remarkable how many dead and dying trees there are, and how little snow there is in the mountains. I'm also reading a book that describes bison herds 50 miles long and 25 mile wide, back in 1870. Lots of change. What's it going to look like in 2100, when our grandchildren are walking around?
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 6, 2012 - 09:59am PT
We're all possibly minutes from extinction as long as we are under the delusion we can co-exist with the Earth. It's a nice theory but unrealistic in the long term as any variety of disasters that have nothing to do with human influence can and will terminate Homo Sapiens. Tic Toc.

Most of this view is due to our short lifespans and our egocentric view of reality.

We belong in space. We came from stardust and we should return there. Baby steps. Until space/time can be folded we're out of luck reaching farther than our galaxy but plenty of work can be done in the meantime by men and women with the courage and foresight to do so.

It gives humanity a higher common goal. Something beyond slaughtering each other fighting for dwindling resources on our current blue speck.
TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Aug 6, 2012 - 10:28am PT
Science and engineering go badadz. Bank.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 6, 2012 - 11:03am PT
I wonder were the Pu238 came from
Not made in the USA anymore
Three-alpha decay makes a lot of heat for the RTGs and no other radiation
Solidly packaged as an oxide in a ceramic



Power that buggy for a decade or so

10b4me

Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
Aug 6, 2012 - 11:27am PT
I am probably in the minority, but I think space exploration is a waste of money. There are so many things that money could be spent on.
Guck

Trad climber
Santa Barbara, CA
Aug 6, 2012 - 11:51am PT
The Plutonium 238 obviously came from Iran.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 6, 2012 - 12:02pm PT
Wonder what would happen if that rocket exploded like Challenger or failed and crashed back to earth. That's a lot of plutonium! 10x more than would take to make a bomb (although that would be 239)

peace

Karl

edit

http://www.space4peace.org/articles/curiosity_mission.htm


Indeed, NASA’s Final Environmental Impact Statement for the Mars Science Laboratory Mission says a launch accident discharging plutonium has a 1-in-420 chance of happening and could “release material into the regional area defined…to be within…62 miles of the launch pad,” That’s an area including Orlando.

The EIS says “overall” on the mission, the likelihood of plutonium being released is just 1-in-220. This could affect a major portion of Earth in an accident which vaporizes and disperses plutonium from the rover, called Curiosity, as the Atlas 5 rocket carrying it up gains altitude.

The EIS says an accident releasing plutonium in the troposphere, the atmosphere five to nine miles high, is “assumed to potentially affect persons living within a latitude band from approximately 23-degrees north to 30-degrees north.” That’s a swath through the Caribbean, across North Africa and the Middle East, then parts of India and China, Hawaii and other Pacific islands, Mexico, and south Texas.

If there’s an accident resulting in plutonium fallout which occurs above that and before the rocket breaks through Earth’s gravitational field, people could be affected “anywhere between 28-degrees north and 28-degrees south latitude,” says the EIS. That’s a band around the mid-section of the Earth which includes much of South America, Africa and Australia.

The EIS says the cost of decontamination of areas affected by the plutonium would be $267 million for each square mile of farmland, $478 million for each square mile of forests and $1.5 billion for each square mile of “mixed-use urban areas.”

The mission itself has a cost of $2.5 billion.

“NASA is planning a mission that could endanger not only its future but the state of Florida and beyond,” declares John Stewart of Pax Christi Tampa Bay, a leader in Florida in challenging the launch. “The absurd—and maddening—aspect of this risk is that it is unnecessary,” says Stewart, a teacher. “The locomotion for NASA’s Sojourner Mars rover, launched in 1996, and the Spirit and Opportunity Mars rovers, both launched in 2003, was solar powered, with the latter two rovers performing well beyond what their engineers expected. Curiosity’s locomotion could also be solar-powered. NASA admits this in its EIS, but decided to put us all at risk because plutonium-powered batteries last longer and they want to have the ‘flexibility to select the most scientifically interesting location on the surface’ of Mars.”

I cry foul. You don't take a one in 220 chance of a trillions of dollars and many lives lost accident when theres a viable alternative.

Here's the alternative view that all is safe

http://www.lifeslittlemysteries.com/1947-curiosity-launch-plutonium-danger.html
Batrock

Trad climber
Burbank
Aug 6, 2012 - 12:17pm PT
Mcreel,
Having lived in the west my entire life no snow and dead trees are just part of he seasons we go through. Last winter we had record snow packs, next winter may be a big one again or maybe the drought will continue. The beetle has done lots of damage but then again we need a thinning of vegetation in the west and this may be natures way of taking care of it. In the 1800's there were far fewer trees and far less undergrowth in the forests. Since man has moved out here and started aggressive fire suppression it has really thrown the echo system all out of whack. It's hard to look at a a few years and make long term predictions. Drought is just a part of living in the west.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 6, 2012 - 12:19pm PT
By all accounts, it would seem that it wasn't 99lbs of plutonium. More discussion of the risks and history of nukes in space below. Surprised to see they've already had space nukes fail and fall to earth. Some may claim it's just science that needs nukes in space but they done will with solar for a long time. I say the nuke industry is just trying to keep in business

http://enformable.com/2012/08/plutonium-fueled-curiosity-completes-martian-landing-as-proponents-push-nuclear-technology-in-space/
...Of the 26 earlier U.S. space missions that have used plutonium listed in the EIS, three underwent accidents, it admitted. The worst occurred in 1964 and involved, it noted, the SNAP-9A plutonium system aboard a satellite that failed to achieve orbit and dropped to Earth, disintegrating as it fell. The 2.1 pounds of Plutonium-238 fuel onboard dispersed widely over the Earth. Dr. John Gofman, professor of medical physics at the University of California at Berkeley, long linked this accident to an increase in global lung cancer. With the SNAP-9A accident, NASA switched to solar energy on satellites. Now all satellites and the International Space Station are solar powered.

The worst accident of several involving a Soviet or Russian nuclear space systems was the fall from orbit in 1978 of the Cosmos 954 satellite powered by a nuclear reactor. It also broke up in the atmosphere as it fell, spreading radioactive debris over 77,000 square miles of the Northwest Territories of Canada.

In 1996, the Russian Mars 96 space probe, energized with a half-pound of Plutonium-238 fuel, failed to break out of the Earth’s gravity and came down—as a fireball—over northern Chile. There was fall-out in Chile and neighboring Bolivia....
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 6, 2012 - 12:23pm PT
I suppose the question is how much fallout and were there any dangerous levels?

Fallout dosn't bother me by itself.

For example when radiation detectors managed to catch a few molecules of fallout from Japan I wasn't the slightest bit worried about our health here in the US.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 6, 2012 - 12:43pm PT
I stand corrected... The entire Power Supply weighs 99 pounds... only about 11 pounds of the warm stuff.

•Main Function: Provide power to the rover
•Location: Aft side of the rover
•Size: 25 inches (64 centimeters) in diameter by 26 inches (66 centimeters) long
•Weight: about 99 pounds (45 kilograms)
•Power Source: Uses 10.6 pounds (4.8 kilograms) of plutonium dioxide as the source of the steady supply of heat
•Electrical power produced: slightly over 100 watts
•Batteries: 2 lithium ion rechargeable batteries to meet peak demands of rover activites when the demand temporarily exceeds the generator's steady electrical output levels
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 6, 2012 - 12:59pm PT
They have gone to one of the best spots on Mars


The Jersey Shore of Mars...YOOOOOO
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 6, 2012 - 03:37pm PT
We could have sent 100 of these things for what we spent on Afghanistan this year.

Not quite, but in the range. We're spending about $5.3B/month these days in AFG, so 2 Curiosities/month. Between 2001 and now, we've spent ~$450B, so we could have funded ~180 space missions of that scope.

Curiosity cost about the same as 1 movie ticket per US citizen, well worth it in my book, esp. when you consider this ;-)

gonzo chemist

climber
Fort Collins, CO
Aug 6, 2012 - 03:42pm PT
Riley,

I never read Sagan's Contact. But I have seen the movie. *GASP*


I have no idea how closely the movie follows the book in its details. But I always felt that the movie wasn't really about space travel, alien life, or any of that nonsense. It was about us. How we as a society deal with the two seemingly contradictory items: scientific understanding/development and religion/god. It was a look at how the peoples of earth would behave in the context of such an extraordinary discovery as alien life.


just my quick 2 cents....
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 6, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
Nobody displayed this better than Sagan in Contact - the book that has probably influenced me more than anything!
But when you look at it deeply and honestly and truly get a feel for the times, distances, power and mass involved...
You realise, at least I did, that we are not going anywhere.

In less than a blink of geologic time, human ancestors have evolved from eating bugs in the great rift valley to fusing atoms and controlling vehicles on distant specks of light. It is entirely possible to assume that given the will to focus on such a task that humanity could pull it off. The big question is will our own self-indulgent and self-destructive tendencies do us in first.

True that real travel outside the galaxy requires not propulsion or vehicles as we know them but probably the ability to warp space and time. The absence of knowledge should never convince someone that it must be impossible.

I saddens me to think how many great minds are wasted on such useless occupations that pass as jobs these days.
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