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Dos XX
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 24, 2012 - 11:11am PT
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I never would have thought it'd happen in my lifetime. This afternoon at a news conference to be held at the Museum of Flight in Seattle, a private business venture backed by James Cameron (of Titanic and Avatar movie fame), Larry Page and Eric Schmidt (current and ex-Google CEOs), plus X-Prize impresario Peter Diamandis will be announced, which will endeavour to locate and recover (mine) precious metals from asteroids in space.
I need to give @klimmer credit for first alerting me to this news story:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/briancaulfield/2012/04/20/planetary-resources-co-founder-aims-to-create-a-gold-rush-in-space/
Which got me thinking... as the discoverer of two main-belt asteroids (2004PC27 and 2004PX42), would I be entitled to all, or a share of anything valuable that might be found on either of these objects?
Here's a link to the discovery photographs for 2004PC27 (allow a few seconds for the .GIF file to load) 2004PC27 is marked by the red cross-hair.
http://www.francisquito.org/animation_2004PC27.htm
and here's the discovery photo for 2004PX42 (now named Johnmuir), also marked by the red cross-hair
http://www.francisquito.org/discoveries.htm
...anyone know a good space lawyer?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Apr 24, 2012 - 12:37pm PT
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Apparently there are just a few men who have legally captured an enormous amount of the mineral rights for our Earth's Moon, so there is precedence in this regard. I'll have to find the website and resource. I mean really, how can this be legal???
http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/02files/Moon_Mining.html
http://www.thelivingmoon.com/41pegasus/02files/Cosmic_Conspiracy2.html
http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/02files/Moon_Mining.html#Water
http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/02files/Moon_Rights.html
I still believe this is what we should do and I've said this before . . .
Return to space. Go back to the Moon and push onto Mars with "Constellation." Mine the NEAs that threaten Earth and mine the Asteroid belt. There are a plethora of resources there for us to utilize to expand into space. Go get it.
“The asteroids that are potentially the most hazardous because they can closely approach the Earth are also the objects that could be most easily exploited for raw materials. These raw materials could be used in developing the space structures and in generating the rocket fuel that will be required to explore and colonize our solar system in the twenty-first century. By closely investigating the compositions of asteroids, intelligent choices can be made as to which ones offer the richest supplies of raw materials. It has been estimated that the mineral wealth resident in the belt of asteroids between the orbits of Mars and Jupiter would be equivalent to about 100 billion dollars for every person on Earth today. “
http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/?why_asteroids
http://ngec.arc.nasa.gov/files/ngec_proceedings/speakers/Lewis_Asteroids.pdf
Mining The Sky: Untold Riches From The Asteroids, Comets, And Planets [Paperback] John S. Lewis
http://www.amazon.com/Mining-Sky-Untold-Asteroids-Planets/dp/0201328194/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1295314967&sr=1-1
This is what we should do. We can do a World of Good. So why aren't we?
Well, there are some things I hadn't thought of yet until just recently . . .
I just got History Channel's Ancient Aliens Season 3, and I just watched the program on Ancient Aliens and Gold. Apparently , ET has a real affinity for Gold (Au). They like the stuff and like to use humans as slave labor to mine it. (Dang, ET is lazy.) Very useful industrial metal and very useful for space technology, electronics etc. Nothing else like it.
However, I'm thinking ET already has discovered the riches of the Asteroid Belt, millions or even billions of years ago. Are we gonna try to jump their claims? It looks like things could get really ugly real fast. Can you imagine Asteroid discoverers claiming their Gold (ie "DosXX"), The US Government and other space fairing nations, and ETs all in a Court of Law at the United Nations trying to work-out and hash-out all the legal ramifications of this? Lol.
Then ET just gets upset and pulls an "Independence Day" scenario on us. Game over.
Uh, oh. Here comes Solar System War I (SSWI) and its all about resources. Where have I heard this before? Dang, nothing ever changes.
Lol. ;-)
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Apr 24, 2012 - 12:50pm PT
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A quick google of "Glomar Explorer", Howard Hughes project to mine the mineral nodules off the ocean floor, which only turned out to be an elaborate ruse via cover story from the CIA so that they could pick up a Sunken Soviet Nuclear Sub, would have you question if this is real or hyperbole....The whole world was running around to go get Mangenese nodules and other such nonsense. New companies were formed and funded to run out and get their own manganese nodules and their share of the riches they knew Hughes was sure to get. 3rd world countries extended their borders and front page headlines decried this theft of 3rd world resources by rich nations. blah blah blah - meh...I'll believe it when I see it.
Good luck with the royalty payments though.
http://www.topsecretwriters.com/2010/11/project-azorian-and-the-hughes-glomar-explorer-mission/
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nukevault/ebb305/index.htm
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Dos XX
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 24, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
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This was supposed to be funny... and now apparently a reality.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Apr 24, 2012 - 01:31pm PT
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Apr 24, 2012 - 09:50am PT
Did anyone else have their early formative years molded by Heinlein's "The Rolling Stones" (aka Space Family Stone)?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rolling_Stones_%28novel%29
I was mining on the Moon with Major Matt Mason.
Still wish I had the entire above set. I've recently purchased a Major Matt Mason figure through Ebay for nostalgic reasons. Good times as a kid with MMM and watching the Apollo missions to the Moon. Good memories.
Major Matt Mason is hopefully gonna be a major motion picture with Tom Hanks as MMM . . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_Matt_Mason_(film);
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 25, 2012 - 12:50am PT
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The "Treaty on Principles Governing the Activities of States in the Exploration and Use of Outer Space, including the Moon and Other Celestial Bodies" will prevent such private activities. All activities in space must be under the active supervision of one of the signatory states. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty
If economic and environmentally-acceptable means are found to reach, explore and mine such asteroids, and return their metals to Earth, it'll be by agreement between governments, and under their control. There's too much at stake otherwise.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Apr 25, 2012 - 01:03am PT
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Just like any other corner of the universe; he who can get there first, and hold it with force, gets to own it.
Because, dang, we need more gold. I sure don't have enough. Get me suhmore right now!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Apr 25, 2012 - 01:27am PT
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty
The treaty explicitly forbids any government from claiming a celestial resource such as the Moon or a planet, claiming that they are the Common heritage of mankind.[2] Art. II of the Treaty states that "outer space, including the Moon and other celestial bodies, is not subject to national appropriation by claim of sovereignty, by means of use or occupation, or by any other means". However, the State that launches a space object retains jurisdiction and control over that object.[3] The State is also liable for damages caused by their space object and must avoid contaminating space and celestial bodies.[4]
The actual treaty . . .
Treaty on Principles Governing the Activities of States in the Exploration and Use of Outer Space, including the Moon and Other Celestial Bodies
http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/oosa/SpaceLaw/outerspt.html
The Outer Space Treaty was considered by the Legal Subcommittee in 1966 and agreement was reached in the General Assembly in the same year ( resolution 2222 (XXI). The Treaty was largely based on the Declaration of Legal Principles Governing the Activities of States in the Exploration and Use of Outer Space, which had been adopted by the General Assembly in its resolution 1962 (XVIII) in 1963, but added a few new provisions. The Treaty was opened for signature by the three depository Governments (the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom and the United States of America) in January 1967, and it entered into force in October 1967. The Outer Space Treaty provides the basic framework on international space law, including the following principles:
 the exploration and use of outer space shall be carried out for the benefit and in the interests of all countries and shall be the province of all mankind;
outer space shall be free for exploration and use by all States;
outer space is not subject to national appropriation by claim of sovereignty, by means of use or occupation, or by any other means;
States shall not place nuclear weapons or other weapons of mass destruction in orbit or on celestial bodies or station them in outer space in any other manner;
the Moon and other celestial bodies shall be used exclusively for peaceful purposes;
astronauts shall be regarded as the envoys of mankind;
States shall be responsible for national space activities whether carried out by governmental or non-governmental entities;
States shall be liable for damage caused by their space objects; and
States shall avoid harmful contamination of space and celestial bodies.
This is exactly what a few private citizens have been able to manipulate and work around. It forbids Governments (Nation/States), but not private individuals and Corporations apparently. That is how just a few individuals have the minerals rights for the Moon.
I don't agree with what they've done, but apparently it was legal???
Things will definitely have to be worked out.
What they were able to do . . .
Apr 24, 2012 - 09:37am PT
Apparently there are just a few men who have legally captured an enormous amount of the mineral rights for our Earth's Moon, so there is precedence in this regard. I'll have to find the website and resource. I mean really, how can this be legal???
http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/02files/Moon_Mining.html
http://www.thelivingmoon.com/41pegasus/02files/Cosmic_Conspiracy2.html
http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/02files/Moon_Mining.html#Water
http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/02files/Moon_Rights.html
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 25, 2012 - 02:09am PT
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The "private citizens" you mention are all citizens of governments that have signed the treaty, and ultimately under those governments' control. Some might like to believe otherwise, but it's in all the governments and the international interest that any activity be orderly and managed. There may be a place for private entrepreneurs, but always under licence.
Some may claim that they 'own' the moon, but by existing standards of international law as it relates to terra nullius, only the US has a possibly valid claim to it, which it has not made.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Apr 25, 2012 - 02:23am PT
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Many others are concerned about this. I don't know the complete validity of this claim but its a definite concern.
http://www.thelivingmoon.com/41pegasus/02files/Cosmic_Conspiracy2.html
Mining Connection #002
Who Owns the Mineral Rights?
Three people!!!
However, a loophole in Space Law allows individuals and companies to hold Mineral Rights on the Moon, Mars and other celestial bodies. Growing concern from Scientists that these rights may be held hostage have been alleviated by a three man North American team; Dr. Joseph Resnick, Dr. Timothy R. O'Neill and Guy Cramer (ROC-Resnick/O'Neill/Cramer team) who have acquired the mineral rights for 95% of the side of the moon that faces Earth, the polar regions and 50% of the far side of the moon. - Source
Dr. Resnick found the loophole in Space Law 25 years ago that allowed him ownership of all planetary bodies outside the "Third Planet from the Sun"... submitted this to the World Court at the Hague, and to the United Nations in New York City. In 25+ years no one has ever disputed Dr. Resnick's claimed ownership. Source
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 25, 2012 - 12:01pm PT
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Just so that it's clear, my friends in the ark, and the guys on Apollo 20, already staked the backside of the Moon for me.
Any individual who thinks that she/he might make a legally valid and effective claim to an extra-terrestrial body or its resources without the active support of a government really is a loonie. If a single asteroid really contains the resources you mention, no government will allow any individual or corporation ownership or control of it.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Apr 25, 2012 - 12:08pm PT
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So the Americans, Russians and Brits got together and decided how all this would play out, drafted a document and declared it "legal."
Now isn't that grand - and totally ridiculous.
As the man said, "Just like any other corner of the universe - he who can get there first, and hold it with force, gets to own it."
Simple as that.
JL
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 25, 2012 - 12:26pm PT
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I'd read the Outer Space Treaty - which has been signed by more than 100 countries, including all those with a real presence in space - to mean that whatever happens in space, it'll be under the control of governments, and by international agreement. Not a lawless "wild west" scenario. Much like discussions of exploiting Antarctica, and the seabed. They may not be "owned" by any country, but no individual will be allowed to claim or exploit their resources.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 25, 2012 - 12:30pm PT
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Nothing excites me like an ironclad failsafe business plan.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Apr 25, 2012 - 04:20pm PT
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Don't shoot the messenger. I'm just letting you know there are individuals who have claimed mineral rights on the Moon.
Do I agree with it? No.
I think Asteroids (as opposed to planetary bodies) are gonna be another thing altogether though. Obama et al. are trying to push private enterprise to space. You think private enterprise is going to do so without incentives?
I don't think so.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Apr 25, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
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They can claim whatever they want, but we have yet to see a manganese nodule company pull it out of the ocean and make a buck, and that stampede started in the 70's.
Stampede on!
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