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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 9, 2011 - 03:53pm PT
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It's no secret that I haven't been too happy with Obama, but I voted for him.
I hope he can redeem himself. He needs to start doing what we asked him to do. He should have done something like this ages ago.
If this passes it will be a start. We all need to get back to work and turn the economy around. People are hurting. Corporate America isn't.
Presidential Economic Address to Joint Session of Congress
Sep 8, 2011
http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/JointSessi
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2011 - 04:05pm PT
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By the way, the GOPers just sit there on their hands with scorn full looks. They will not stand up for us.
They must hate America.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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The GOP does hate America. They hate an America of diversity, an America that offers fair opportunity for those who strive and an America that is just to all and not only to an elite minority.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2011 - 04:22pm PT
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nothing to do with governments' influence on jobs, welfare, taxes, etc.
I can agree with you regarding population and resources however, I must disagree with the above statement.
When the rich and Corporate America are doing better than ever, and everyone else, the middle class and the poor are doing worse and are out of work, something is seriously wrong and upside down.
Redoing the tax laws and making correct political decisions can turn this economy around. Corporate greed has to stop. We can build an economy on green technology and we should. There are alternatives to fossil fuels and we should be going after all of them big time.
We can help the environment and grow the economy at the same time. The technology and know how is already here.
Corporate greed and the greed of the very rich are in the way and hold us back.
What happened to taking care of one another for the benefit of all? I'm not talking socialism. I'm talking doing the right thing and taking care of those less advantaged. The rich can still be rich but take care of others. Bring everyone up not just you. Provide good jobs. Pay down debt. Use your wealth wisely. You can't take it with you when you pass on to the other side.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Too small. Too late. Too timid.
Welcome to our lost decade.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A community of hairless apes
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Everything's relative.
You could take from the rich and double everyone's income in the middle and lower classes (a totally unrealistic fantasy of wealth redistribution) and all the world's cultures and peoples would sooner than later still be bumping up against the very same asymptotes.
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CrackAddict
Trad climber
Joshua Tree
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It won't do anything at all for our economy. The problem with this kind of stimulus baloney is that if the government pays someone a dollar to do a job, the person must produce more than a dollar's worth of goods or services to create any economic growth. The private sector can do this because when they don't they go out of business - there is a type of "natural selection" which hones this. Government though, can almost NEVER produce jobs like this, they typically only produce jobs which return 10-60% on the dollar. This doesn't help, it just cuts into economic growth. You can see why Cuba's economy has just decayed and why China has boomed at 10% growth per year as it moves into a private economy for the last 20 years. The Government can produce jobs, but economic growth is much harder, and without it, the country goes downhill to the point where it can't support such a government. The Soviet Union had 100% employment - but could not even put bread on the shelves in stores. This is not to say there should be no government jobs, just that if you want to create a government job you should have a compelling reason to believe the private sector cannot do this job.
Well at least it is "paid for"! Please. Obama actually claims it is paid for by future (yet undefined) cuts in the budget. This is the type of logic you would expect from a drunken gambler or drug addict, but it is our own president blowing smoke up our asses. We deserve better than this.
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CrackAddict
Trad climber
Joshua Tree
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Increasing everyones salary to 150% of todays wage.
Pushing the AVERAGE 150% is possible mathmatically and realistically. And is a reasonable goal of all of us, and realistic.
Realistic, yes. It has been done before in other countries. And every time it has produced disaster.
No country has EVER ACHIEVED ANY SUBSTANTIAL WEALTH for its citizens without free and fair capital markets. Allocating wealth based on need, sharing or some other pie in the sky notion will lead only to decay. Why? As I said above, letting the market allocate wealth usually produces more than a dollar for each dollar invested. Allocating it in some ad hoc way for any other reason almost always produces less than a dollar. Multiply 0.6 by itself many times and soon you have something close to ZERO. Feel free to do this yourself with a hand calculator if you doubt me.
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CrackAddict
Trad climber
Joshua Tree
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Our economic stagnancy has...
everything to do with... our population that's overshot carrying capacity... limited growing space... dwindling resources (including fossil fuels) and higher prices for these.
nothing to do with governments' influence on jobs, welfare, taxes, etc.
Sure it does. Why is China's economy not suffering right now then? 48% of our population relies directly on some sort of entitlement from the government right now. This is higher than anytime since the great depression. China is moving in the opposite direction.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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I know!
Let's do NOTHING about the "unemployment" problem!
Let's NOT cut taxes, let's NOT give tax credits to employers, let's NOT employ people
to rebuild our infrastructure!
That way, we can never be "wrong", never be criticized, we can always be right!
Because ANY attempt to actually do something WILL be labeled as too much, too little.
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We should NOT "spend" money to TRY to help the economy.
All jobs should be created ONLY by the "private sector", NO government help at all.
Then we can sit back and bitch about how bad the economy is, and this President is
a weak pussy who never tried to do anything.
And we can listen to dumb sh#t Fattrad, who can't decide if he wants the economy to get better or worse, because to his chickenshit little brain, it is all about bashing the
President, and NOT about coming up with real world solutions to our problems.
Fuk that dumb ass.
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CrackAddict
Trad climber
Joshua Tree
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Thanks LEB. I read this yesterday and will try to find the link. The number includes not just welfare though but people who are employed directly and indirectly (i.e. contractors) by the government.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Yes.. that number includes military, the FBI, the CIA, all people on social security, ect..
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CrackAddict
Trad climber
Joshua Tree
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Norton, you just don't get it. We can protect jobs within the U.S., employ people to dig holes while we employ others to fill them up, etc. But this type of system does not exist in a vacuum. Overall we will LOSE jobs because we have to tax businesses to pay for this nonsense, and they will do what they have been doing - outsource or move to another country where labor is cheaper.
One thing on the table right now is to lower corporate taxes down to the level of average corporate taxes for developed nations (from 35% to 25%). This is a good start, but we have to do better. Our labor is too costly and getting less skilled every day because our government is pricing us out of the labor market. Get rid of all of the tax exemptions and loopholes to make up the difference. Government has no business picking winners and losers in a capitalist economy.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Oh yes, I "get" it. Anything specific questions you want cleared up?
edit: forget it, this crap belongs on my THE political BS thread.
No reason at all to put another NON climbing thread into the mix.
Go over to the Republicans wrong thread and issue vague, unsupported personal opinions.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Obama does not have exactly a good record for fixing things
The republicans have had a death grip on Obama's neck since he took office. Its been one huge battle after another.
Read the link Jfailing posted to understand what this is causing.
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Eric Beck
Sport climber
Bishop, California
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I've always been a big Obama supporter and I gave this speech a D. The word energy was never mentioned. The big picture is that as we are using only 90% of the oil we were in 2008. It's like baking cookies; If you are short on an ingredient, you make a smaller batch.
As we transition to a renewable/electric economy, the critical need is electricity storage. Batteries are much too expensive. The new Tesla S costs $57,000. For large scale storage, pump storage is the only practice actually in use and even here it is on a very small scale. The few examples that I think of are: Pyramid/Castaic, Huntington/Shaver and Ludington Michigan(here Lk Michigan is the lower lake). I would create large research project in electric storage.
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Crillz
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Wait....
So if you're one of the 48% (perhaps not on welfare, but have a government job or are doing some type of contracting for them) you are getting an entitlement? YOU must have taken a wicked hit from your crack pipe there.
Screw it. Let the country crash then. Who really cares about left vs. right? What kind of sick f*#k right winger would want to take over after Obama, if the country is in ruins anyway? Left vs. right is a joke. They're the same tools.
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SuperTopo on the Web
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everything to do with... our population that's overshot carrying capacity... limited growing space... dwindling resources (including fossil fuels) and higher prices for these. 
Let us know!