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Squamish Climber
Trad climber
Shangri-La
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 29, 2011 - 05:28pm PT
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We've been here before but the new proponents say this time around it will be different. Instead of topping out on the second summit of the Chief, this gondola would head up the ridge towards Mt. Habrich (a short steep valley over) and end 200 meters above the Chief. The gondola would still pass through Stawamus Chief Provincial Park, who has not squashed the idea so far...
The debate has already started on squamishclimbing.com
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jun 29, 2011 - 05:30pm PT
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Where would the ski runs be?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 29, 2011 - 06:27pm PT
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The last such proposal was in 2004, by developers wanting to build a gondola from a base in the gravel pit just SW of the campground, up and over the east side of the south summit, to a terminal at the middle summit. It would have had high impacts on the natural values of the park, and on the public, climbers and hikers, and seemed poorly planned. The successful opposition was led by the Climbers' Access Society of B.C. The provincial government overrode the process required by the Park Act for such things, and said that before it could be seriously considered, it had to be approved by the municipal government, the Squamish Nation, climbers, and the Olympics people. It got little support from the Squamish climbing community - a much broader group than just climbers living in Squamish - and was eventually also rejected by the First Nation and the District. (A legal challenge was also a possibility, but wasn't pursued.)
After the proposal was defeated, the Access Society worked with partners to get the gravel pit "base" area taken off the market, through a deal involving MEC and the Land Conservancy of B.C. If no base area was available, future projects would be stillborn. The property was purchased, but I believe put back on the market last autumn and sold, perhaps subject to covenants as to use.
More information is needed about this new proposal. However, it appears likely it will have substantial impacts on the park in the base area, and the lower part - essentially quite close to the campground, trail and Bulletheads. Stawamus Chief and Shannon Falls parks are contiguous there, and although the top and bottom of the gondola may be outside the parks, the rest probably isn't. Its overall impact on the Chief may be less than the 2003 proposal, although visual and environmental impacts on the area generally need to be assessed. Likewise if there's demand for such a project, what would happen if it was built and failed (or succeeded and wanted to grow), and whether there are alternative locations with less impacts. Judging from the photo, this time there may be water available to the top area - the usual restaurant and tourist shops, presumably. Likewise, they might build a road to the top, off the Shannon Creek road, which might reopen access to Habrich etc.
Here we go again, maybe. In 2004 the Access Society had some buttons made, and suggested they be kept for future threats to the Chief. Looks like this may be one such.
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the goat
climber
north central WA
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Jun 29, 2011 - 07:58pm PT
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What's the point? Is it merely to get non-hikers to a high point or do they (developers) have bigger plans beyond an observation deck? Seems waaaay too expensive.....
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 29, 2011 - 08:10pm PT
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It seems likely that significant development would be needed at the base and summit, to generate enough traffic and income to pay for the thing. Restaurants, tourist shops, tours, and on and on - just like Yosemite!
Also, who knows if it would be economical to operate year round, bearing in mind the local climate? There's also competition - the tram on Grouse, and lifts at Whistler. Why would you stop at Squamish when you can continue to Whistler, and try the "big boy" gondolas, including the peak-peak, there? Plus tons of commercial stuff?
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bmacd
Social climber
100% Canadian
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Jun 29, 2011 - 09:36pm PT
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Looks like a good idea, better than the clear cuts in the photo. Those kinda render any discussion about environmental impact mute. Maybe extend the Howe Sound Crest trail all the way to Sky Pilot area too. Gives the locals more options for day trips
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Jun 30, 2011 - 01:22am PT
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Howe would this fit with current and proposed mountain biking trails?
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NigelSSI
Trad climber
B.C.
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Jun 30, 2011 - 02:32am PT
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Worst thing about climbing in Squamish is Squamish. Town, port, and highway right under your ass, but great rock above you. Gondola = more poop.
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bmacd
Social climber
100% Canadian
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Jun 30, 2011 - 03:19am PT
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Tami - how do you think the local boz are going to get their pressure washers onto Habrich without gondola access - you know how much we like those freshly shaved granite cracks. Habrich is in dire need of a cleaning
A ton more cragging up there gets developed too because of this. There is no downside to this idea whatsoever, except for those whom like to force their version of ethic's and asthetics down others throats.
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Pakdong
climber
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Jun 30, 2011 - 03:24am PT
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Where will they put the water slide?
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Matt M
Trad climber
Alamo City
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Jun 30, 2011 - 09:57am PT
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While not a local I've enjoyed the climbing in Squamish many times in the past. The idea that Squamish is some sort of pristine wilderness always rings a bit hollow to be. I fully support preserving the park and natural habitat as much as possible but let's be honest here, Squamish is a large mix of outdoors and industrial in a small footprint. From nearly anywhere on the Chief you can spot the town, BC Hydro Power Lines, the paper mill etc etc. Not to mention the logging roads, dirt bikers etc etc. While we like to complain about "European" ideas of lift accessed wilderness and huts serving food in the "backcountry" the sheer AMOUNT of wilderness we have (particularly in the PNW) vastly outweighs developments that are really only found off the highway. I found in WA, that you merely needed to drive up a forest road for a few miles to loose most signs of "convenience".
In Europe, where you can take a day pack and a gondola and hike the Alps very easily, the amount of people enjoying it far surpasses anything I've seen in NA.
I'd be very interested to see what other recreational opportunities a project like this could open up. If you can increase the access to BC Skiing, Mtn Bike trails and hiking while simply adding a base station with some shops I can't see the impact as that severe. I mean, come on. There's a Gas Station, KFC and "Native Souvenir" shop right up the road from the base of the Apron.
The view coming into Squam isn't pristine from my recollection...
I'm not saying this won't be a major eye sore and bad idea but let's keep things in perspective as well.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jun 30, 2011 - 10:07am PT
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Interesting debate. I don't know anything about the proposed gondola, and what might or might not be at its base or top, so I can't comment pro or con.
But what I find interesting is that many North Americans who enjoy a vacation in the Alps because they can ski up one valley and down the next via a highly developed lift system get really upset at the thought of any similar development in their own mountains.
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bmacd
Social climber
100% Canadian
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Jun 30, 2011 - 04:06pm PT
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I'm not saying this won't be a major eye sore and bad idea but let's keep things in perspective as well.
Eyesore ?? You mean the power lines ? Shouldn't anyone who opposes the proposed tramlines also oppose power lines ? I challenge them to also cease and desist using electricity if they are serious about forming opposition to this project.
Hope you don't choke on your granola after you turn off your lights
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 30, 2011 - 08:21pm PT
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A broadcast message from the Access Society:
A new proposal for a gondola in Squamish was announced yesterday. The proposed gondola would launch from the gravel pit nestled between the Chief and Shannon Provincial Parks, ascend through BC Parks, and top out at a forested shoulder west of Mt. Habrich. Information about the proposal is available at http://www.seatoskygondola.com/
Representatives from CASBC and Squamish Access Society (SAS) recently met with developer David Greenfield (GroundEffects Development Inc.; www.grndfx.ca) to learn more about the proposal. The developer is seeking support from the various interest groups (including CASBC) before deciding whether to move forward.
The gondola would have a number of implications for Squamish residents, the local economy, tourists, climbers, backcountry skiers and other interested groups. CASBC has yet to take a position on the proposal. The CASBC Board is interested in members' views. We are exploring the proposal thoroughly and will be meeting with the developer again in the coming weeks or months.
Thank you for your continued support!
Cheers,
Climbers' Access Society of BC
At the time of the 200r gondola proposal, something of this sort was suggested as at least a possible alternative, which ought to be considered. More information and discussion needed, but at least this wouldn't go to the top of the Chief, although it wouldn't be far off, and there would be significant impacts. Also, the proponents seem to have some sense of public relations - the 2004 proposal seemed rather inept. But good PR doesn't necessarily something should be done.
This is much more than a local issue, and so a bit of information and discussion here seems to make sense. If/when the time comes, there should be information as to who to write to with comments.
Otherwise, a Land Conservancy newsletter arrived today, again with nothing about the fate of the gravel pit lands, their sale, and if sold, what if any conditions might have been attached. I'm certain that the intent when it was purchased was to prevent inappropriate development. IIRC, MEC put $50,000 into the purchase, and the Access Society $5,000.
(There is information in the TLC newsletter, and perhaps its website, about a proposed purchase of a 50 hectare parcel of land at Sansum Point, "overlooking the swift currents of Sansum Narrows". I wonder if this affects or relates to access to the climbing there?)
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 30, 2011 - 08:32pm PT
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It seems unlikely to help, unless the operator allows base jumpers to jump from the towers - which ain't likely. There doesn't seem any cliff high and steep enough near the upper terminal of the proposed gondola for safe jumping.
People base jump from near the second summit of the Chief, more or less above the Prow Wall. I gather it's somewhat marginal, best done only in calm conditions - usually dawn or dusk. At least two jumpers have gotten hung up there over the last year or two. Here's a photo from the rescue of one, last year.
The jumper got caught in a tree that's out of the photo - handy things, sometimes - and has just been hoisted to the top, with the rescuer following.
This photo is from the first summit, showing the second summit, with Mount Garibaldi behind. The 2004 gondola proposal would have had an upper terminal at the second summit, with all the usual tourist stuff. So it might have been of some use to base jumpers - but climbers were universally opposed to it.
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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We need to get all the facts straight on this proposal before we get our self righteous knickers in a twist. It would appear that the proponents of the original idea have heeded the suggestion to redirect the gondola up into Shannon Creek. This would mean rebuilding the defunct logging roads that provide access to the Skypilot Range and be a boon to the outdoor recreation community and economy, climbers included. At first blush this project looks like a winner and I'm all for it. Looking forward to more details.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Thanks, Perry - that seems to be pretty much the consensus at this point. That is, wait until more information is available, then analyze and discuss it. Not that we'll all agree on how to respond, and no doubt some have already made up their minds. Have you heard anything about the project or proponents that might be useful?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Ummm Hank? Jim's photos are of some jumps from the Chief. The proposed new gondola wouldn't be anywhere very near there.
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Khoi
climber
Vancouver, BC
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What Erik Frebold, a coworker of mine who has put up some routes in Squamish, has to say:
Goat ridge doesn't strike me as quite as obvious a launch point for hikes as they claim-- quite a bit of alder and bluffs to deal with first. Also it seems a shame to bisect the parkland with a gondola.
Also, their map doesn't actually show... the gondola going anywhere near Goat ridge, despite their claim, unless the two principals, who are both experienced real estate developers, also have something extra in mind for the Shannon Creek valley... road expansion, bridges, houses?
Finally, isn't there quite some new development of climbs going on right now on the bluff they claim has "no known climbing activity"? Quite a breathless document, all in all. 60-80 person-years of construction work eh?
New climbing access to Habrich environs? I don't see climbers rushing to pay $25 for the Grouse gondola to get up the Widowmaker Arete.See More
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Hoser
climber
vancouver
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They are building a gondola, how is that going to be appealing to the grouse grind crowd?
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