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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Apr 18, 2011 - 01:42pm PT
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David Kay Johnston has a great book called Free Lunch
that tells about the rich. . .
Great stuff, Klimmer.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Apr 18, 2011 - 01:44pm PT
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"They all suppose what they want to suppose." ("Um-pah-pah," (from Oliver)
John
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Apr 18, 2011 - 01:56pm PT
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I did, John, but it took me three tries to get to it. While the facts get stated, the commentary reflects the views of one unencumbered by a knowledge of economic analysis or tax law.
Also lost in the AP article, is this: Not only did the 400 highest incomes pay tax at a lower rate than before, but so did everyone else. We dropped the capital gains rate to 15%, and almost all enormous incomes come from liquidation of capital gains. Obama & Co. aren't talking about those rates; they want to raise the rates on salaries.
John
Edited to correct type in "stated"
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Apr 18, 2011 - 01:57pm PT
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your links are messed up Klimmer.
I think this is the article you wanted folks to read.
Edit: Weird, I can't get my link to work either.
It's because the rich are f*#king with you...Mmwaaahhhh!!!!
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Brandon-
climber
Done With Tobacco
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Apr 18, 2011 - 02:01pm PT
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Apparently this is censored.
The links don't work.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Apr 18, 2011 - 02:04pm PT
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Also lost in the AP article, is this: Not only did the 400 highest incomes pay tax at a lower rate than before, but so did everyone else.
Yeah, people always leave that out of the "Bush tax cuts for the rich" mantra.
EVERYBODY'S RATES WENT DOWN!!!! Those that actually pay taxes.
Of course, we all know what is wanted. 'Tax him more so I can pay less, take his money'...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Apr 18, 2011 - 02:13pm PT
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I would say the OP gives great reason for a more fair and flat tax system.
The problem with a Flat Tax is that you either are going to gouge poor people, or be confronted with the reality that our gov't spends too much money.
The bottom line = Our gov't needs to cut spending. Drastically.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Apr 18, 2011 - 02:20pm PT
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Drop 99 percent of the tax write offs.
Keep a graduated rate tax.
first 10 grand pays no income tax.
second 10 grand pays some..
third 10 pays a higher amount.
that way everyone pays exactly the same amount on each successive amount of money they make.
Charging the poor the same 15 percent that the rich pay with a straight flat tax would just be wrong.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Apr 18, 2011 - 02:21pm PT
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You could tax ALL the income, and I mean ALL income, from the people at 100k and above and still not pay for this years deficit.
Thats why taxes should have gone up when Bush pushed us into a war. not down.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Apr 18, 2011 - 02:33pm PT
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Fatrad.. there is a christian principle that "too whom much is given, much is required". Thats why the more you make, the more you should pay in taxes. This country has gone backwards from that. Yes.. they went too far in the other direction of taxing too much, and now the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction, of taxing too little. We need to get it balanced.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Apr 18, 2011 - 03:00pm PT
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John,
There's also a couple of other Christian and Biblical principles:
1. We don't advocate burdens for others that we don't shoulder ourselves;
2. We must avoid hypocrisy; and
3. Everybody should be in on it.
These come from both the Old and New Testaments. The Tabernacle had a poll tax, so no one could say they were more responsible for it than anyone else. The tithes were a flat tax. The rich paid more in proportion to their income.
In contrast, our income tax system has people paying more in disproportion to their incomes. Unless we are in the highest backets, and asking to increase our own taxes, it's blatant hypocrisy to demand that others pay a higher percentage than we do.
Finally, as Klimmer's article acknowledges, those with the highest incomes pay a disporportionate amount of the income tax. Since we're talking income tax policy here, I find the article's attempts at diversion laughable.
For those who couldn't get on, the article admits the truth that the highest incomes pay a disproportionate amount of income tax, and that a huge proportion of the popultation pays no income tax. It goes on to state that income tax is not the biggest source of revenue for the government, so "the poor" still pay plenty of Social Security and Medicare taxes. So what? Everybody defends these programs as something they "paid for," rather than as welfare. If so, the fact that they "paid for it" is irrelevant to an income tax debate. If not, it should be treated as part of the budget, so the world can see the truth of its actuarial insolvency.
John
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 18, 2011 - 03:12pm PT
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JE,
You are not telling the truth about the article. I read it.
It clearly lays out that the rich have been screwing over this country financially for a very long time. Facts are facts, and it laid them out for all to see.
The article in its original form will be back. Someone will repost it.
Get real.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Apr 18, 2011 - 03:35pm PT
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Klimmer, I read the article. The facts are truth. The interpretation (the rich are treating everyone else unfairly [to translate into Eupemism]) is mere opinion, not fact.
John
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Apr 18, 2011 - 03:36pm PT
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And the rightwingers attempt to skew the facts again. The entire system is bought and paid for by the wealthy.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/04/18/965604/-The-Conservabot-Returns
I think the wweek website may be overloaded.
http://www.tax.com/taxcom/taxblog.nsf/Profiles/DavidCayJohnston?OpenDocument
David Cay Johnston has a new book coming out
When people babble about an overall flat tax like Forbes, you need to include ALL taxes: sales tax, gas tax, Soc Sec tax, Medicare Tax, property tax, capital gains, & company paid expenses.
http://visualizingeconomics.com/2007/11/03/nytimes-historical-tax-rates-by-income-group/ (only federal taxes)
You also need to account for massive tax expenditures.
That chart of taxable income deliberately leaves out many kinds of income,
and fails to show the growing income inequality in the US.
Just a few examples:
Step up in capital gains at death - When you die and leave your heirs $100K in stock, for which you paid $10K, they get a step up in basis to the new $100K level. the missing $90K is never treated as income, and never taxed. A giveaway to the rich, just like Prop 13 in California.
Real estate trades - When a real estate investor sells a property, they can pay no tax on the gain. They just have to buy another property soon, as a 1031 exchange.
Hedge fund managers get to treat their regular income as capital gains so it is taxed at 15% instead of 35%. (and no Social Security tax)
http://www.altweeklies.com/aan/9-things-the-rich-dont-want-you-to-know-about-taxes/Story?oid=3971382
http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2011/01/inequality
http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html
http://taxprof.typepad.com/files/129tn0251.pdf
http://www.cjr.org/the_audit/banana_republic.php
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/18/the-top-10-tax-breaks-_n_850534.html
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Apr 18, 2011 - 03:41pm PT
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Splater,
The Democrats tried a carryover basis for assets at death during the Carter years, and repealed it before it went into effect. Want to know why? Because it proved rather difficult to get the data for the carryover basis without a sceance.
Nice try, but this shows interpretation disguised as fact. To you, a fair tax is when those with more income than you pay a higher percentage of their income than you do. Anything that deviates from that you label unfair or worse. To me, a fair tax is when everyone pays the same percentage of their income -- or at least no more than the same percentage you do. Anything else is hypocrisy.
Now what we do with that money, and whether taxpayers with the least income should get some back, is open to debate. Arguing that someone else should pay a disproportionately greater amount, however, is morally indefensible.
John
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Apr 18, 2011 - 03:47pm PT
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And then there is corporate taxation.
According to MoveOn.org:
Exxon mobil's 2009 profit was $ 19 billion yet it paid no taxes and in fact got a $156 million revate fro the IRS.
Bank of America made $ 4.4 billion in profit last year after receiving a $1 trillion dollar bailout and a $1.9 billion tax refund from the IRS.
General Electric made $26 billion in profits over the past 5 years and received a $4.1 billion tax refund from the IRS. GE has cut a fifth of its American jobs in the past 9 years and is boosting jobs overseas where taxes are even lower.
Chevron's IRS refund totaled $19 million last year but it's 2009 profits were $10 billion
Carnival Cruise lines had profits over the past five yearsw totaling $11 billion. It's tax rate however, was 1.1 %.
etc. etc.
http://www.facebook.com/sharer.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Ffront.moveon.org%2Fd-which-corporations-are-the-biggest-freeloaders%2F%3Frc%3Drecirctest
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Apr 18, 2011 - 03:47pm PT
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They pay a max tax equal to about a middle class persons
annual income.
Source, please?
john
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