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wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 8, 2011 - 01:33pm PT
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This governer's ideas seem reasonable to me. And as much as the unions have protected us as teachers, they have certainly hurt public education and the attempts to reform it.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_christie_education
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seth kovar
climber
Reno, NV
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I refuse to join the teachers union...
After the lack of help they gave my girlfriend in SF, I really don't see the point in paying more money out of my already small paycheck...
Christie spoke broadly about the need to reform public education, saying seniority-based tenure should be abolished and that good teachers should be paid more than bad teachers.
all for it, I will probably lose my job this year due to budget cuts and the seniority game...
NJEA spokesman Steve Baker called Christie's proposal "an educational disaster" for students.
"It would require a massive expansion of standardized testing in every grade level and every subject," Baker said.
it's possible with standards-based testing, which a lot of people like to call standardized testing...not the same thing... unless you are a politician...
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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it's possible with standards-based testing, which a lot of people like to call standardized testing...not the same thing... unless you are a politician...
Aye, there's the rub! I agree with you, but I fear that politicians will use one standardized test as the measurement.
It reminds me of a case I was involved in 30 years ago. A promoter of partnerships for coal mining was being sued for lack of due diligence. In a deposition, we asked how many test samples they drilled. He responded "One, but it was very strategically located."
IMHO, all the teachers unions have done is polarize the public against teachers.
John
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seth kovar
climber
Reno, NV
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the problem with joining the local teacher union in cali, you are automatically enrolled in the cta and nea. these two corrupt unions have destroyed any reason i would want to join my local union. unfortunately, assswipe davis said i do not have a choice and whether or not i join i have to pay! so in cali, you pay whether you officially join or not!!!
true, so glad to be in NV, even if my job is not secure, CA is F-ed
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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no pate, but his science fiction class must be pretty interesting....
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wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2011 - 03:42pm PT
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In CO, you also join the state union and the NEA by default when you join the local union.
The only help I ever got from the local union in the 7 years I belonged (out of 19 years of teaching) was when I butted heads with a noobie principal who was trying to tell me how to teach math: a subject she was not qualified to teach. I felt like I had to take a stand, so I pushed back. The union helped me out, in that when she tried to get me force-transferred, the union prevented that from happening.
A few years after that I watched a very confrontational union president get in a colleague's face for asking some very simple and reasonable questions, that as a dues-paying member she should have been able to ask without getting bullied. That's when I decided the nearly $700/year membership fee was not worth the cost. I had been thinking about quitting, due to a number of things, one of them being the fact that I could never even start a conversation about the idea of merit pay with any leaders of the union. Their typical response was "oh, that's just not possible", which of course is ludicrous.
Teachers need due process, but unfortunately unions are such a defender of the status quo, that they really have stopped reasonable reform from occurring. The instant I quit the local union, I figured I gave myself an instant $700/year raise.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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It's good to see the MACE (Morons Against Children's Education) mobilize itself against teachers unions.
...not much further to go in your race to the bottom. -- Fort Mental
Al Shanker's quote to the effect that "When schoolchildren start paying union dues, I'll start to be concerned about their welfare," and the attitude behind it, has done more harm for public support of public education than any union-basher.
John
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seth kovar
climber
Reno, NV
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Let's blame the unions for insisting on decent wages, instead of the corporate as#@&%es shipping our jobs overseas.
I'm not against a good union, just against ones that don't do anything for the ones they represent...
Big difference between the teachers union and the auto union, IMHO...
FortMental- you a teacher?
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seth kovar
climber
Reno, NV
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In your infinite provincialism, you haven't bothered noting that many of the foreign education systems kicking our asses are also unionized.
Who are you talking to? If a union works, great! They don't work for teachers here though...
if our HS kids are too retarded to read at the 8th grade level, it must be because the teachers suck.... not because of 4 hours of video games, 2 hours of TV and another 2 hours of internet porn..... per day. Never mind parents that whine if their kids get more than 20 minutes of HW per day.
Could not agree more... Weekly, I have parents complain about too much homework, it's such a joke!!!!
Once again, are you a teacher?
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Nohea
Trad climber
Sunny Aiea,Hi
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Let's blame the unions for insisting on decent wages
Well teaching is my first union job and the only CB agreed upon wages I have had. The data shows this to be the lowest paying job for the last 20 years of my life; their ability to “insist” on decent wages is quite pathetic. This is not a career you get into for the $$.
instead of the corporate as#@&%es shipping our jobs overseas.
Who? Can I have their names? I know its done but lets not group them all together, lets find out why they sent jobs overseas.
You right-wing boneheads are always looking at labor as the problem; just another expense to cut.
Again who? Tell us who these bastards are!
Good for unions and their attitude in not letting you.
The unions are more of a political machine than a collective bargaining unit.
But you'll win in the end, anyway.... cuz America's full of corporate fantasist numbskulls who resent those willing to fight for a livable wage. Thanks to you shitheads
Who? Lets hear some names
Chinese language class is not far off.
Gung He Phat Choy!
I like the gov’s idea
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wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2011 - 05:31pm PT
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FMental, let's look at it another way. As a teacher, I'm not sure that I get decent wages. My family (including 2 kids) gets by because we struggle every month to live within the money that I earn (plus a little more from my wife's part time job). Of course, at this time many people are not getting by, so maybe my family is fortuntate. But the point is, someday I would like to be able to accomplish some of my financial goals, such as sending my kids to college; something I will probably never be able to do.
I have a colleague who could be the poster child for bad teaching. We don't have too many teachers like this at my school, but this guy is lazy, cynical, selfish, and each year that I teach the kids that were previously in his math class, I see that he has taught them to be lazy and take the path of least resistance in their education. This is not what we want our kids to be learning.
This guy earns $20,000/year more than I do because he's been doing it for a long time with no accountability, and he has mastered all the ways to manipulate the system to his own advantage. Because the teachers' union promotes a system of absolute mediocrity, this slacker guy has never been fired and he makes the most a teacher can make without having a Ph.D. Our school could hire 2.5 good, young, motivated, honest, hard-working teachers with his salary, but because of the fact that it is a pure seniority system, he is a top dog in terms of salary. (Or they could increase my salary based on a merit system, and fire his lazy a$$. I spend a lot more time working at teaching than slacker guy, and year after year I get strong results.)
Is this what you're thinking of when you speak of a union trying to get decent wages for its members?
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seth kovar
climber
Reno, NV
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Word...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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It's not that Unions suck or that management/government sucks, it's that human nature can be selfish, greedy and manipulative. It gets worse in groups, any group.
So when I was in Management in Yosemite, the union took all kinds of money from the employees for which they didn't get lots of service but I knew from the inside that this union protected the employees from all kinds of reductions, exploitations, and cutbacks and made management think twice before firing somebody. All in all, the employee would have been FAR worse off without it.
So what to say? Danged either way. People have issues.
With teachers it's tricky. Really good teachers can't necessarily turn the wrong students into achievers. Parents, culture and previous teachers all have more power than a few months with one person. So how to measure merit? All objective measures are bogus as students and their economics and background figure too much. Subjective measures turn into popularity contests.
no good answer but every change often is just an advantage for the politicians questionable motives
Peace
Karl
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Given the job at hand, and the qualifications needed to become a teacher, it is fare to say that most states are greatly underpaying their teachers. Most of this kind of crap is a smoke screen to find ways to blame teachers for poor parenting, and lousy school funding that has resulted in failing kids.
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wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2011 - 05:55pm PT
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Huh . . I am the OP so if I'm arguing the OP's points, uh, it's because it's me.
And no, I'm arguing for teacher evaluations so that I can make 20K more per year. You're just repeating the tired argument that every teachers' union president would make.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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^ ^ ^
No, it's not "fare" to say and it's not even "fair" to say.
We live in a country that generally follows the iron law of supply and demand. We don't just sit around and try to "think" what people deserve to be paid what.
In teaching, salaries are offered, and they are accepted. If they weren't, then higher salaries would be offered.
Maybe you need to take a class in basic economics if you have trouble following this.
(Quick anecdote: a friend's sister is a Colo. teacher who has been teaching for 30 years. That sounds like a long time, but she's only in mid 50s. Apparently that qualifies her to take a pension of something like 80% max pay for life. We can figure out what that's worth, but I'm sure it's WELL over one million dollars. Doesn't sound too shabby to me, to put it mildly. You have to look at total compensation--hers was pretty sweet.)
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hobo_dan
Social climber
Minnesota
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well what the fukc I'm two beers in and up for more
The poor sonsobitches who teach in the inner city have a hopeless job. The children start kindergarten already 5 years behind. They can bust their ass but they will NEVER close that gap.
You doubt what I say well piss up a rope and put your life where your mouth is- I put in 15 years at an inner city school doing everything I could think of and my kids could not meet any sort of passing grade for their age. (and fucjk you and the horse you rode in on if you think 15 years is adrop in the bucket) And I was pretty good at what I did. We did make progress but we were not competitive- My students would have needed to be in school until they were about 25 or so to get caught up to a suburban upper middle class high school grad. This is not to say they did not have skills-They did, but they did not fit very easily in the SAT profile.
So I quit there and went to a nicer neighborhood and I work as hard and my kids are tops in school scores in Minnesota- I must be the best teacher ever. Not so, I just work with families who buy into the system- they're kind of boring but they have high test scores and good SATs and GPAs. They are polite and respectful and pretty obedient- If you were on a long climb and the shti was hiting the fan, you'd be on your own-they need to be told what to do and sometimes you have to figure it out yourself- this is something they tend to whine about. These are kids who are coached by adults- think soccer moms not kids who know how to play street ball.
IMO many people have no business having children- at least children that can fit into the sprockets and cogs of the U.S. machine.
But WTF my old kids never started a war, never drove the financial system into the ground,(probably never voted or paid taxes either).
If you teach at a poor school it is a tough ass job and I tip my hat to you- You're busting your butt to help some kids and you have zero backing- but you're not fooling me. I KNOW how much skill is required to do that job well and you guys have nothing but my utmost respect
murf
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hobo_dan
Social climber
Minnesota
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might as well talk pension while we're at it. In Minn. I am required by law to put 5%-7.5% of my paycheck into a retirement fund- no choice in the matter- and I never see the money. My district does the same for me. If I retire at 55 with say 30 years in, my pension is about 40% of my top 5 earning years- I make about $67,000 or so, so when I bag it in 4 years I will have an annual pension of approx $28,000. or about $2300/ month.
I have a B.A, an M.Ed and 45 credits beyond that, that I worked for to make more $. This is probably comparable to someone in the private sector with 25 years and college credits beyond a masters degree. Wouldn't you agree?
I'm not complaining about my income- I can do what I like and I certainly enjoy my unpaid leaves in the summer.
I've invested well and I'll use that to supplement my pension.
I didn't invent this system and I worked with what was offered me. But that is about how much my pension will be.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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That's the problem and Murf is a perfect example. The teachers with the hardest jobs are going to tend to "look" worse on paper while the same teacher might look great at a school where the kids have money and two parents.
So you penalize the teacher in the poor school and it just deprives the poor schools from good teachers
Peace
karl
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hobo_dan
Social climber
Minnesota
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should'nt have got me started you dum muther fukcers. The best stat for teaching is that of all teachers who try the career 50% quit within the first five years- The job weeds them out because either they don't want to put up with the bullshit of the terrible child or they're no good at it.
This will not change if you let everyone into teaching without licensure (and the professors I had at my education college were horseshit!!) You're drawing from the same pool of society. Dont think because you know how to spin a calculator that that means you'll be this dynamic individual in the classroom- It takes a special mix and most people do not have it- and you know this already because you can reflect on you're own education and you know I speak the truth, Great teachers are few and far between and they have to fight for their own existence because the system does nothing
I'm done
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