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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 14, 2010 - 12:22pm PT
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okay, ed hartouni, here's a subject that might be worth a little discussion. i don't post about climbing because, unfortunately, i'm not doing enough of it, and what i do isn't worth the patooties on a forum where they solo el cap routes. i've never done a lot of adventure climbing or FAs. i'm generally happy to go to a place that has an established guidebook and bang my head against my own ceiling. once in a while i break through it, and that makes my day. it seemed to happen a lot at williamson rock, and that closure really curbed my growth.
fyi, i started leading 5.11s after i turned 50. if anyone else is looking to do that, i recommend a turn towards gym climbing. cranking on plastic holds builds forearm strength, gripping and crimping. i'm past 60 now and the pipedream is a 5.12 before 70, but, as i say, i'm just not doing enough right now and i find myself hard up against a generation gap.
most of my idyllwild climbing was done with a 5.10 ceiling. a friend lured me back there two years ago, and i decided to give chingadera a whack. according to the vogel/gaines guidebook, i led up to and including the 11a crux move (parlez-vous français? my style includes occasional resting on pro and short falls), but was burned out and bamboozled for the final move to the (current) first belay.
i couldn't find anyone at rockreation who knew the first thing about this except largo, who told me he thought the crux was harder than 11a. he said he climbed it the first time with rick accomazzo, and after that rick's really hard face climbing seemed to take off.
so--does the guidebook have it wrong? did i get the frikkin crux, as shown between the last two single bolts? or is the crux between the last bolt and the three-bolt anchor? i don't need no stinkin' beta. it'll involve ... never mind, just save your strength for it.
btw, here's to bob kamps. i had the pleasure of climbing with him for a day at williamson a few months before that damn heart attack sneaked up. kamps led chingadera onsight, GU. the guidebook has some talk about an "aid section", and it sounds an awful lot like those cantankerous 5.9 double cracks at the start, where you hang on the left crack and lean over to place pro in the right one. i did that clean as a whistle, sans l'accent français, so maybe i can get a little credit for that.
chingadera was considered "one of the hardest" in the country at the time, and a significant move towards the "really hard face" a lot of us love. kamps wore some sort of weird italian hiking boots for it--i wonder if they're still available.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 14, 2010 - 12:32pm PT
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I've only played on it once on a top rope after going up the Right Ski Track.
I've never considered myself more than a 10A leader and it was all hard but doable except for a mantle sequence down fairly low that I couldn't even come close to doing.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 14, 2010 - 12:42pm PT
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you can lead anything you can toprope.
for chingadera (1967), bob wore something called pivettas or civettas. i've read that in a couple places, including the guidebook's history section.
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scuffy b
climber
Eastern Salinia
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Jul 14, 2010 - 12:46pm PT
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Mr. Kamps did a lot of his hard climbing in Pivetta Cortina boots.
I think his feet were too wide for Kronhoffers. The Cortina, nominally
a hiking boot, was unlined, and functionally, it was a wider, slightly
stiffer analog to Kronies, which were the rage among the hard climbing
Southern California crowd.
Long Ago is probably the most reliable source on Mr. Kamps' shoes.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Jul 14, 2010 - 01:19pm PT
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I haven't done it since June 1979. I was with Eric Ericson (who led), Lynn Hill and Mike Lechlinski and we called it 5.11+ back then (according to my journal).
That would have been in EBs though.
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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Jul 14, 2010 - 01:40pm PT
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The whole thing's a crux, if you ask me. That thing's slicker than snot!
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jul 14, 2010 - 01:57pm PT
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Erik Erickson called it .11+? The guy is such a good face climber (not to mention Lynn, and OK Evans is pretty good too), I give their opinion a lot of weight.
Never tried that one though. Done lots at Idyllwild graded 5.11a and harder but never hopped on that one. Lets us know your progress.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 14, 2010 - 01:59pm PT
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this thread needs pics....
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oldcragger
Trad climber
Truckee,CA
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Jul 14, 2010 - 02:09pm PT
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I jumped on Chingadera in '81, my first year leading without a clue how hard it gets after the crack. Took my first real lead fall just before the first bolt, happy my Chouinard stopper held. Left the stopper and retreated with my tail between my legs. Lead it clean a few years later. Haven't been back since.
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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Jul 14, 2010 - 02:09pm PT
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All,
Scruffy b has it right on the shoes. I wore Kronhoffers, but Bob didn't favor the fit. What was especially amazing is he wore Cortinas for many years with the old vibrum soles while the rest of us punk kids were resoling with "green dots," a neopreme work boot sole super for edging but not friction. "Dots" were not a great choice but at least smooth compared to the bumps and cleats and hard rubber of the old vibrum. We even sanded our dot soles to increase friction, though maybe that was more fiction than friction.
I think Bob’s shoe choice got him to edge more than friction, and I came to emulate his style. We did a fair amount of new routes in Tuolumne with our respective old shoes, probably edging small stuff where knob smearing would have been better. Later, maybe 80's, we both finally got into modern shoes and though a miracle had take place.
I've done a fair amount of 5.11 and some 5.12s too way back when. Chingadera seemed a or b to me in the day but, as I say, edging was my specialty. As I recall, there's lots of that on Chingadera and its pretty sustained.
Tom Higgins
LongAgo
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 14, 2010 - 02:12pm PT
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Pivettas were popular among the Fresno crowd when I started climbing in the 1960's. They remind me more of Spiders than Kronhoffers or Zillertals. Their toe was more rounded and, as mentioned, they were really more of a hiking boot, but you could edge pretty well if you had a wide foot and fit them tightly.
John
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jul 14, 2010 - 03:40pm PT
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For me the crux is climbing past the last two bolts with the most intense move at the last bolt. It's thin but very well protected so you can really focus on the moves with zero fear. Mr. Kamps told me he was hesitant to grade it 5.10 on the FA.
It's really worth continuing up to the second (original?) belay. This goes nicely in one pitch without drag if you use double ropes.
I've led the thing clean 4 times that I can remember right now, always in the most advanced shoes available (most recently in Scarpa Technos.) For me it's definitely harder than some other .11a's up there like Etude, Electric Razor, and it's scarier neighbor, the South Face Route. But it's easier than some too, like Manwich and Bedrock. I think it's about the same as Magical Mystery Tour which gets .11c in the book, but then I think Idyllwild grades are a bit scatterred...
Bob sure was a visionary climber. I have an old pair of Pivettas out in the garage. I'd look like a fool on that route in those shoes, and that would just be getting to the first bolt!
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jul 14, 2010 - 04:01pm PT
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Tom-
I had a pair of Cortinas back in the mid 60s, and they were cut VERY wide; I have exceptionally narrow feet, so they really sucked for me. On my first trip to the Valley in 1965 I was using Kletter Spiders based on the recommendation of Chris Fredericks and Steve Thompson. The Spiders were a great edging shoe, and really sucked on friction.
Rodger
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Jul 14, 2010 - 04:07pm PT
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That was my first 11a face (slab) onsight so I have no perspective to how it was relative to other 11a's. I remember thinking it was damn hard. I did it as training for the Vampire cruxes and then later fell on my onsight attempt on The Vampire.
Josh
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LithiumMetalman
Trad climber
cesspool central
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Jul 14, 2010 - 04:49pm PT
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Climbed this route 4 years ago, 2nd time at Taquitz and we hopped on b/c of the name (we didn't know the history of the route at that time)...we were so stoned...
Agree with Ksolem, the crux was def towards the last bolt (for me at least!)Thin but super fun! H*ll the whole climb was a crux, great moves!
Moccs rule!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 14, 2010 - 04:55pm PT
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my question is: is the 11a between the last single bolt and the three-bolt anchor, or just before the last single bolt?
the guide has it just before the last single bolt, which means i climbed it and it does me great gratification. will go back for another whack and try to save some moxy for the end.
but if i burned out at the crux instead of after it, maybe i shouldn't set my sights so high. if that's the case, the guidebook needs an amendment.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jul 14, 2010 - 05:04pm PT
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Where's Darrell Hensel, I think we need his input on all this!
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Murf
climber
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Jul 14, 2010 - 05:15pm PT
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I thought the hardest move was getting to the 3 bolt belay.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jul 14, 2010 - 05:17pm PT
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Tony - Don't worry about which exact bit is the crux by some marginal amount of difficulty. Just know you can do it. That's the kind of climb you want to sneak up, never even let it know you're there.
At this time of year, go up there late in the afternoon when it's been in the shade a while, late enough for the stone to cool off and the wankers to head for the bar.
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DonC
climber
CA
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Jul 14, 2010 - 05:55pm PT
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Holy smokes - I've not thought of this climb in a lifetime. I did it with my brother in 68 or 69 in Kronhoffers.
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