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Fishy
climber
Zurich, Switzerland
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 16, 2010 - 05:00pm PT
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Hi All,
Some time ago I came across some interesting comments from Bachar and Largo concerning the general question of technique vs strength.
Largo's comment was something along the lines of "technique take me up into the 5.11's when only climbing say once a week, but to get beyond that, I need to more dedicated training"
JB said basically that from 5.11 onwards, there is not much new technique, it is simply doing the same stuff with more power or endurance.
With this in mind, I would like some of your inputs:
1) Do these comments match with your experience?
2) As a "week-end warrior" climbing only one or two days on the weekends, what would be a realistic goal? 10's? 11's? 12's?
3) Hypothetical question: you were a 5.12 climber in Yos, but then took a 1 year climbing break. During the break, you had a job requiring average activity, so you didn't put on any significant fat, but equally you didn't do anything that would develop climbing-relevant muscles. What kind of grade (crack climbing) would you expect to start at again?
Cheers!
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brett
climber
oregon
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Mar 16, 2010 - 05:04pm PT
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1. yes
2. easy 11's unless you hang with folks who routinely get on harder stuff
3. ? don't know
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Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
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Mar 16, 2010 - 05:07pm PT
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lacking any particularly developed technique or fitness, apparently motivation and desire are good for 8-9's....
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Mar 16, 2010 - 05:22pm PT
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1) Do these comments match with your experience?
2) As a "week-end warrior" climbing only one or two days on the weekends, what would be a realistic goal? 10's? 11's? 12's?
3) Hypothetical question: you were a 5.12 climber in Yos, but then took a 1 year climbing break. During the break, you had a job requiring average activity, so you didn't put on any significant fat, but equally you didn't do anything that would develop climbing-relevant muscles. What kind of grade (crack climbing) would you expect to start at again?
1. yes
2. if not fat, even up to hard 11s. I'm an overweight middle age punter and I can do the technical moves of 11s. willing to rehearse? less than a pitch? yes.
3. depends on desire, grades are only a rough guide, and 5.6 is supposed to be hard.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Mar 16, 2010 - 05:28pm PT
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It's an interesting question, because it shows the limitations of the ratings.
Is a 5.11 climber one who can climb every 5.11? Or is a 5.11 climber some one who can make a couple of 5.11 moves on a sustained 5.9?
I've seen new climbers who have good balance and body movement learned in other activities making 5.10 moves after having climbed only a few times, and others that have been climbing off and on for years that just can't break into 5.10 climbing.
My climbing partner who hits the climbing gym or natural rock once a week weather permitting is pretty solid on 5.11 moves and pulls the occasional 5.12. Me on the otherhand who at my peak was solid on easier 5.11's, with many years of getting out of shape and putting on way to many pounds, I need to climb a few times a week for several months to get to the point that I'll have a go at 5.10 moves.
One last thing, it also depends on the angle of the climb. I can climb harder low angle routes when out of shape, and will peel off of overhanging 5.8's.
I do think I could jump onto most any 5.9 crack climb and not have a problem.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Mar 16, 2010 - 05:36pm PT
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I would generally agree with Paul. I found that the technique doesn't go away as fast as one might think, but we also forget how much strength gets used as the climbing gets steeper. I have had the distinct displeasure of spending months at a time separated from climbing of any sort. Somewhat to my surprise, my face climbing technique was still there, even if my center of gravity shifted.
On crack climbs, though, the change is more noticeable, as all the cracks have shrunk in width!
John
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 16, 2010 - 05:37pm PT
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This a head game in your head.
By the time you've figured it out you'll be an old man with no climb or country left ......
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Mar 16, 2010 - 07:50pm PT
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Strength and endurance can help technique as you have more time to figure out what to do.
Otherwise I agree with Largo and Bachar.
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alpinerockfiend
Trad climber
greater Yosemite
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Mar 16, 2010 - 08:43pm PT
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"This is a head game in your head"- classic!
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Maysho
climber
Soda Springs, CA
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Mar 16, 2010 - 09:40pm PT
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I agree with JL and JB, but such a statement needs to be put in perspective, meaning, if one has developed the technique and power to boulder hard and climb hard 5.12, then yes, when out of shape, one can do 5.11 - 5.11+, and beyond that some time on the stone to re-develop specific power and endurance is required.
For working their way up the grades for the first time, who knows?
Peter
ps. I also think that for many, probably most, intermediate climbers, improved footwork will help them progress more than stronger fingers.
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slevin
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Mar 16, 2010 - 10:26pm PT
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The grade alone is not enough information. What kind of routes are we talking about? Cracks, for example, are very much about technique and are very "democratic" - it's all about practice and mileage. Roofs are usually pure power-endurance and there is no way around it. Micro-crimpy verticals and slabs are very footwork dependent and can be "techniqued" up to low 12s.
I found that my brush with cancer and chemo has improved my technique a bit - when you are weak, you have to find the right body positions and footwork to pull through.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 16, 2010 - 11:30pm PT
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Yes, to qualify it a bit more.
And tossing out gym/sport ratings, say moving through the grades in Yos, Taquitz/Suicide, JT, Eldo, Canyonlands, Cathedral, Gunks and so forth: staid trad areas, where you place all your gear on lead or prep for serious run outs, by the time you are unflapped (solid) leading 5.11+ you will be fit, ripped, and plenty strong, sharp in the mind and light on the feet.
And conversely, if you do not maintain the latter (strength & technique), you aren't likely to be in full command on the former (full boat, well rounded trad expertise at the solid 5.11 level).
It comes with the territory; strength & technique, they are not exclusive or independent states of being.
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taorock
Trad climber
Okanogan, WA
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Mar 16, 2010 - 11:59pm PT
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Personally, I feel that technique evolves into grades harder than JL and JB stated. Or in other words there are new techniques developing all the time. Many of them are directly related to strength, tension, timing and even visualization. A 5.14 climber needs to respond.
tao
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pip the dog
Mountain climber
planet dogboy
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Mar 17, 2010 - 01:26am PT
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[1] yes.
[2] simply too many variables to answer, chaos theory. how good is this weekend warrior's baseline technique? how long have they been at it? at least your third Q limits the variables a bit.
[3] me, i'd guess the soft end of .11 -- at least in any quantity
(i define astroman as real .11 -- not two V4 boulder moves on an otherwise .9 one pitch schport climb)
~~~
well, that's been my personal experience.
i've only gotten reliably above sustained .11's when i've had the chance to do at least a few months of consistantly climbing 30+ hrs/wk -- and in combination with climbing-focused strength training (mostly fingers/hands).
~~~
now do recognize that my buddies have the "dogboy rule": which states that if i can get up a pitch in less than 30 tries -- it is _definately_ NOT .13
a couple routes in my neighborhood have been officially downgraded based solely on this rule.
and rightfully so.
~~~
Bachar was once kind enough to write and remind me that i really needed to get serious about climbing-focused strength training -- that or accept being forever mired in the swamp of "pretty good, but..."
fine man, and of course totally in the know and totally right. alas, i apparently chose to remain in the swamp.
^,,^
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Mar 17, 2010 - 01:56am PT
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Someone said it above. What does it mean to climb 5.11 to you? Being a 5.11 climber, I was taught and pretty much believe, means you do it onsight, w/ bad pro, in a light rain, essentially whenever you try. To me, solid at 11...any 11, is a world class standard.
But for one little 5.11 to hang on the mantle, it's an easier weekend warrior accomlishment. Proud, all the way. But, you can probably get to that if you choose carefully, rehearse, etc. And maybe w/ less route-specific prep if you have the natural chops. (I sure don't.)
Another thing that has helped me...in the immortal words of Fern Webb, "Strength IS a technique."
Last, but not least, and again as others have mentioned, I think that some routes are more yielding to techniques (other than strength). At Indian Creek some years back there was a famous climber dude...very nice and leagues stronger than us...who had some crack technique dialed, but it wasn't his bread and butter. He was struggling w/ a 12a (really the < parts) by getting through on sheer strength (layback!!!). If my bf hadn't had the technique (weight on his carefully jammed feet), he couldn't have bullied his way through in a similar manner b/c that sort of energy simply was not in his tank. But he climbed it using a whole lot less E b/c he knew the tricks. Moral of the story...muscle can get you through the crux, but style might get you through with less grunting. If you've got both, then won't you be a happy guy?
-Melissa...cherry pickin' for glory, sometimes getting a little, and still fixin' to become a 5.9 climber weekend warrior princess.
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Fletcher
Trad climber
The beckoning silence
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Mar 17, 2010 - 02:10am PT
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And I thought this thread was going to be about picking up the ladies (or dudes)...
Despite my disappointment, good discussion nonetheless!
Eric
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Mar 17, 2010 - 02:33am PT
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"...-Melissa...cherry pickin' for glory, sometimes getting a little, and still fixin' to become a 5.9 climber weekend warrior princess..."
I don't even know you (except from the intardnet) but I'm glad to hear that you're "sometimes getting a little." Congrats.
Curt
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Prod
Trad climber
Dodge Sprinter Dreaming
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Mar 17, 2010 - 09:58am PT
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1) Do these comments match with your experience?
2) As a "week-end warrior" climbing only one or two days on the weekends, what would be a realistic goal? 10's? 11's? 12's?
3) Hypothetical question: you were a 5.12 climber in Yos, but then took a 1 year climbing break. During the break, you had a job requiring average activity, so you didn't put on any significant fat, but equally you didn't do anything that would develop climbing-relevant muscles. What kind of grade (crack climbing) would you expect to start at again?
1. Never been a solid .11 climber, so I don't know.
2. I would think that if you are fit, not fat, and have some advanced knowledge of technique, that climbing 2 days a week should get you into the solid .10+ to .11 range, and sporting it into the .12's? At least I hope so as my goal by 2011 is to be more solid into the .11's.
3. I would expect that I would be able to climb off the couch at .12, but would most likely fail on .10's. What can I say, I have high expectations...
Prod.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Mar 17, 2010 - 12:35pm PT
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There's strength and there's strength-to-weight ratio.
There's great technique with great finger strength.
There's great foot technique (think Diane Hunter)
There's overall strenth and technique (Largo and JB)
There's enormous mental strength (Derek H. and Alex H.)
That's the cool thing about this sport. It's like a math problem, you have the equation of your body, and the equation of the rock. Your job is to find the best way to convolve those 2 equations, taking into account your personal equation (size, strength, technique) to find the easiest way for you to get up that particular piece of rock.
Unfortunately, for most of us, as we get older, our equation solving probably includes less elegant solutions than it used to. However, the thrill of the solved equation still spurs us on, no matter the difficulty.
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