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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 11, 2010 - 03:06pm PT
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How do you tell people- the people of your community, the people of nations, the people of the world- to stop making babies? -When making them, raising them, and tending to them is the #1 purpose maker in their lives?
You don't. Or do you?
You don't. And life goes on. You enjoy the "faunal bloom" (cf: floral bloom of bacteria) of humanity as long as it lasts. The "faunal bloom" that's based on the power of fossil fuels. And you enjoy your own personal life. Day to day. "The power of now." And hope it ends before the inevitable wars (over resources) and population crash.
At least this is the belief among some.
Remember OctoMom? How about the Duggar Family.
http://www.duggarfamily.com/
Obedient to Jehovah always: "Be fruitful and multiply."
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Mar 11, 2010 - 03:11pm PT
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Okay, I'll do my part!
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dktem
Trad climber
Temecula
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Mar 11, 2010 - 03:14pm PT
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Just start a thread on ST and you've got it covered.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Clovis, CA
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Mar 11, 2010 - 03:15pm PT
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It's all about education.
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Tendon
Boulder climber
Fort Collins, CO
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Mar 11, 2010 - 03:25pm PT
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I just wish an IQ test was required to reproduce.
But like some say, truly intelligent people don't procreate.
So in the end the dumbies will rule the planet...
oh wait...that might have already happened?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Mar 11, 2010 - 03:35pm PT
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It's all about education.
I hate to disagree with a fellow Clovis-ite, but education doesn't always change behavior. Morality, however, does.
There seem to be too many who feel a moral imperative to procreate as much as they can. I think from a Judeo-Christian point of view, at least, that ignores the God-given imperative to take care of His creation.
At our current population level, increasing population has at least the following economic effects:
1. It reduces the marginal productivity of labor, thereby lowering wages;
2. It increases the demand for food, housing, and other resources, thereby increasing costs;
3. It leads to environmental degradation, because we are out of balance with our surroundings; and
4. It creates an incentive in others to do the same. The thinking [sic] goes something like this: If only those who believe in large families have large families, and we live in a democracy, pretty soon, those who believe in large families will outvote everyone else, so we'd better have large families, too.
Until overwhelming majorities of people think that having large families hurts humanity, however, I don't see any real chance of people thinking it's immoral to procreate in large numbers. If someone can tell me how we get to that place, I'd have much greater confidence that we won't reach the Malthusian limits.
John
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Mar 11, 2010 - 03:39pm PT
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Oops. Should've posted this sooner. My wife and I recently got pregnant with no. 3, which pretty much killed my plans to dust off the aid rack for one long overdue trip up the Captain.
Anyways, I generally agree that overpopulation is creating all kinds of problems: pollution, overconsumption of fossil feuls, deforestation, overfishing, killing of wildlife for bush meat, etc., etc.
The problem is, how do you raise that argument since your very existence is part of the problem? Also, the problem isn't just more kids. It's responsible stewardship.
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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Mar 11, 2010 - 03:44pm PT
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JE - "I hate to disagree with a fellow Clovis-ite, but education doesn't always change behavior. Morality, however, does." - I've heard that you cannot legislate morality...
(my own thoughts) - you may be able to make imoral behavior a bad thing in order to change the hearts and minds of the population, however, education of the law/morality might get us further toward resolution of the issue brought by this thread.
Pesonally I'm doing my part by not creating little Jingy's...
And that's all I can do.
Frowning at the women surrounded by 9 kids at the local grocer does no good expect create hostility in that woman and her 9 off-spring....
I'm with Pate on the mormon consuming themselves thing... Let's just sit back and watch what happens...
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gazela
Boulder climber
Albuquerque, NM
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Mar 11, 2010 - 03:49pm PT
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Take that Mormon thing up with Tom Frost and Pat Ament....
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Mar 11, 2010 - 03:52pm PT
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yeah, start at home. i am very greatful that some of the posters here do not reproduce...
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Mar 11, 2010 - 03:52pm PT
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The problem is, how do you raise that argument since your very existence is part of the problem? Also, the problem isn't just more kids. It's responsible stewardship.
That's exactly the problem when people say we already have too many people. The logical comeback is "you first." That's not what's being argued. It's not population, it's overpopulation. We don't want a zero birth rate. We want a stable, sustainable population.
Of course, there's also that other problem: the only foolproof non-surgical birth control is celebacy -- a practice in which I don't care to participate. The second of our two children wasn't planned. The technology failed, but thank God. We and the world would have missed a most remarkable girl (now a most remarkable young adult).
Anyway, unlike the OP, I'm not advocating "stop," just "take it easy."
John
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 11, 2010 - 03:59pm PT
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Many of us want "population reduction". At what numbers: From 6-7 billion (now) to 1 billion (c.1800, I think). How crazy is that?!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
Will know soon
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Mar 11, 2010 - 04:05pm PT
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Sure, now that you're born just shut the door......lol lynnie.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Mar 11, 2010 - 04:05pm PT
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"Anyways, I generally agree that overpopulation is creating all kinds of problems..."
and yet you added more people to the world then will remove when you and your spouse die. Clearly, rational thinking takes a back seat to instinct most of the time (or all of the time if you discount the time minority of rational thinkers that act rationally too).
Humans are animals and there is no getting around it. The environment, sometimes called nature, will ensure that things balance out eventually. We've just evolved to take such a huge amount of the planet that it's hard to consider that the planet will eventually limit our numbers. Limit them quite violently perhaps.
Dave
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Mar 11, 2010 - 04:15pm PT
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having a baby grows you up into a better person than you were before. they, and the situations they introduce coax along maturity, introspection and confrontation of interpersonnal issues that would otherwise go ignored. this is my journey.
its shattering though, to realize that you are instilling within them a cultural illness that you inherited from your kin. what with the wars and evil folk and diseases and all those vunerabilities.
i try to wrap my last thought before sleep each night around me and me children among the mountains.
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Brother John
Big Wall climber
In a cave right next to the tool shack
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Mar 11, 2010 - 04:25pm PT
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AMEN to this thread! If breeders want to continue to pump out their parasites that's fine. If something or some government agency doesn't put a tap on the population virus then we will continue to head down the darkest of all rabbit holes (war, famine, disease and general global strife).
Excellent OT thread.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Mar 11, 2010 - 04:28pm PT
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'"Anyways, I generally agree that overpopulation is creating all kinds of problems..."
and yet you added more people to the world then will remove when you and your spouse die.'
I think Lynne summarized the problems with this thread best. It's hard to argument from a point of moral authority when you're already here, taking up space, using resources, making carbon.
I don't really think having a third child (which, BTW, was a complete surprise since we had unsuccessfully attempted fertility earlier) is irresponsible. The irresponsible part is determined by how, or if, we live our lives. It's pretty easy when you're a single climber and interested in only climbing to sit back and point to breeders as the problem. However, when or if your priorities changes and you actually decide you want a family, then sitting in judgment is a little more difficult. Family is important, and I'm glad my kids will have one when I'm gone.
For everyone advocating for no more kids or only two kids, how many siblings do you have? Should you kill all but one, and their offspring too, to offset your parents' failure to follow your reproductive guidelines.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Mar 11, 2010 - 04:40pm PT
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The United States and most of Europe are not the problem. We are already producing less offspring than previous generations.
If I'm not mistaken we are on a net decrease in population growth. I don't have the stats in front of me though.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Mar 11, 2010 - 04:43pm PT
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AMEN to this thread! If breeders want to continue to pump out their parasites that's fine. If something or some government agency doesn't put a tap on the population virus then we will continue to head down the darkest of all rabbit holes (war, famine, disease and general global strife).
are you suggesting that the gov start whacking those who don't contribute to society?
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Mar 11, 2010 - 04:50pm PT
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Having and teaching children is the only way to enact long term social change. Eventually the stodgy old farts die off, and the new generations with their updated ideals take over.
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