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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 19, 2010 - 02:54pm PT
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How much lower can our country descend morally and ethically? Are we at the rock bottom of immorality yet?
When are we going to see "Change We Can Believe In"? When are we going to hold those who do these crimes in our name to account?
No President Shrub, they don't "hate us for our freedoms." They hate us for the crimes of Imperialism we continue to commit, and the crimes against our fellow man and humanity. Bush's Presidency has done untold damage to this country and to the World. Can we ever recover?
The Guantánamo “Suicides”: A Camp Delta sergeant blows the whistle
By Scott Horton
http://harpers.org/archive/2010/01/hbc-90006368
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 19, 2010 - 03:36pm PT
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I realize this is a new breaking story and you may not have heard about it yet. Harper's just put it on-line on the 18th, and it isn't on the news stand yet. But you can read the entire story now at the link above though!
Prepare to be dissullisioned even more with the US. Prepare to be disgusted with "us".
But this is a BIG STORY.
I would imagine Keith Olbermann will probably talk about it tonight.
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Shingle
climber
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Jan 19, 2010 - 03:53pm PT
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Story has been on simmer for quite some time - not really New, but will now perhaps get airtime.
Obama is closing the whole place - what more should he do - firing squad?
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Vulcan
Sport climber
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Jan 19, 2010 - 03:54pm PT
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Yes, we are The Great Satan. Just look
at what we are doing in Haiti.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Jan 19, 2010 - 04:02pm PT
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Yeah, really.
The bad ol' USA meddling in other peoples business, as usual...
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 19, 2010 - 04:16pm PT
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Yes, this happened in the past, so in that light it is not current news.
However, these developments are NEW. Who knew about Camp "No" before? I didn't and I'm pretty dialed into the news. Who knew they were murdered/killed and that it can now be proven they didn't commit suicide?
We can do good, but we can also do unbelievable evil.
Don't put your heads in the sand. Dissent is patriotic. It is what makes this country better.
Obama hasn't closed anything except maybe some CIA secret rendering camps and then we still don't really know. Turns out there are secret camps within known camps and these continue within the military.
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Vulcan
Sport climber
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Jan 19, 2010 - 04:17pm PT
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Yes, The USA should get out of the way and let France
and Venezuela save Haiti.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 19, 2010 - 04:23pm PT
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This story exposes it all really well:
Illegal arrests and imprisonment with no evidence.
No charges, just perpetual incarceration.
Torture.
Murder.
Lying, calling it "Suicide," altering the crime scene and the body of the victims.
The Cover-up all the way up the chain of command to the office of the President.
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apogee
climber
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Jan 19, 2010 - 04:37pm PT
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"The Guantánamo “Suicides” - Will Obama Hold Them to Account?"
I doubt it. Haven't seen much in the way of real change in a number of areas that are of import to me, so I'm not holding my breath on this one, either.
In my mind, the lack of real change is due to Obama trying to build consensus on issues rather than implementing a clear agenda; the usual scattershot leadership characteristics of a Democratic congress; and the hyperbolic, distracting, obfuscating efforts of the Repugs. Result: little or no real change.
Would I have changed my vote? Not on your life- if Obama had lost, McLame would have expired by now, and Palin would be POTUS. That scares the shite outta me. Even a weak Democratic POTUS is better than most (all?) of the candidates the GOP has had to offer in the last 30 years.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 19, 2010 - 04:40pm PT
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Agree 100% apogee.
Obama has tried to be a nice guy but the political scene just isn't ready for it.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jan 19, 2010 - 04:48pm PT
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Amen Apogee. No to McCain.
Lets try to remember the full fledged sh@t storm Obama inherited. I think it would be a full on miracle if he could fix every problem he inherited. Or even just begin to look at the different problems. He is fighting a tremendous uphill battle.
What he inherited.
Worst recession/depression since the great one.
2 wars.
A worn out military that has been fighting two fronts for more then 6 years.
busted housing boom.
broke and out of control bank system.
derailed FDA, FEMA
Largest national debt ever.
Broken school system.
A congress controlled by special interest and large corporations.
( I know I have forgotten some things )
Oh yes. the mess at GITMO. I'm certain there are others.
The best Change was just not letting McSame into office. That alone was worth it. How many more wars would we be in? What would the price of oil be now? Do you remember how high the price went under Bush's reign? Should we go back to that?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 19, 2010 - 05:43pm PT
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I voted for Obama because I believed in his message.
"Change We Can Beleive In."
I have not seen much. Would I want McCain with Palin?, of course not.
But if Obama tries to sweep these crimes behind him and refusses to seek justice, to only look forward and not behind, then it will be his political ruin and the ruin of our country.
We can not let high crimes and misdemeanors of our elected Government officials to go un-reported, without due justice in a court of law served. If we are ever to get our country back, then these crimes must be properly investigated and those responsible dealt with.
If it goes all the way to the top, TPOTUS, then so be it.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jan 19, 2010 - 05:46pm PT
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Great line from the film Hurt Locker;
"If he wasn't an insurgent before then he is now."
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Matthew Moore
Trad climber
davis, ca.
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Jan 19, 2010 - 05:53pm PT
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Of course it goes to the top.
The Geneva Conventions were deliberately circumvented by Neocons in order to elicit confessions giving the appearance of legitimacy to their bullshit wars for profit.
Obama has already made it clear that he has no intention of seeking prosecutions for those responsible.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 19, 2010 - 05:57pm PT
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And then sadly, that will be the ruin of the Obama administration.
He ran on the promise of holding people to account if I remember correctly, and transparency in government.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jan 19, 2010 - 06:02pm PT
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I agree that the people need to be held responsible. How do you propose doing that? By giving the country back to the party that ruined it in the first place?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 19, 2010 - 06:42pm PT
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We the people need to hold Obama to account.
He needs to start doing what he said he would do.
We need to demand he do the job we elected him to.
Massive peaceful protests. We have a Constitutional Bill of Rights and we should exercise them. We can use the 1st admendment:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
It has to be a massive movement or it will not work. How do you get lazy lard a$$es off the couch and onto the streets?
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
Arkansas, I suppose
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Jan 19, 2010 - 06:43pm PT
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The government long ago became the Juggernaut the founding fathers feared.
When was the last time the people had any real influence over the actions of our leaders?
edit: Klimmer, remember the NYC political convention protest arrests? Your right to protest is being quashed by men with badges and clubs.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Jan 19, 2010 - 06:57pm PT
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"When was the last time the people had any real influence over the actions of our leaders?"
When half the nation votes for the left candidate and half votes for the right, it's really hard to tell what "the people" want. Should the government do what the left 50% want or what the right 50% want? They want different things so it's a 50/50 chance that the government will not do what YOU want.
Even if the people hand influence, it would only be 50% of the people and the other 50% would be pissed off. Just like they are now.
Maybe if 100% of the people in this country was against torture (RE the original post), we would not be doing it. Maybe if 100% of the people in this country [fill in the blank], we would do or not do that too.
No, as long as 50% of the people are idiots, fascists, communists, warmongers, whatever, "the people" cannot have any influence beyond 50%. When we reach an agreement on what is "right", we WILL have influence. Until then, we are screwed.
Dave
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Manjusri
climber
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Jan 19, 2010 - 07:03pm PT
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I don't recall Obama promising accountability on this issue, more the opposite. Like Abu Ghraib, responsibility for this goes straight to the top. To really punish those responsible is politically impossible and it's not worth derailing the agenda merely to produce scapegoats.
I do think this is one of the most important issues Americans need to face, but until the public is ready to stand up and say that state-sponsored torture and murder of innocents is unacceptable, there's not a lot the politicians can do. Right now, something like half of us seem to think this is an acceptable side effect of waging war.
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