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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 16, 2009 - 10:41pm PT
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Questioning authority is essential in minimizing the corruption in our thinking.
Scientists are good at, aiming at identifying weak points and pitfalls in their conclusions and data.
It's needed in Religion too because most of them originated so long ago that their expression is tied with culture and language expressions rooted in ancient times, far from the culture and understandings we live in today. Shakespeare is hard enough for us to understand without a guide and he wrote much, much more recently and in English
Then the problem of using mundane analogies for cosmic principles is prone to misinterpretation. It's even seen in the Bible when Jesus and his crew are entering some village and he tells them not to eat the local bread. The guys freak out because of fear of hunger but Jesus says, Chill, I'm speaking about their "spiritual bread."
If Jesus came back today and preached as reformist an agenda as he did 2000 years ago, there's no way the mainstream would accept him. How many tolerate a liberal interpretation of scripture now? (of course, the rules for everything have become slack like the sabbath)
It's easy to fall in line with the common assumptions other people hold in your religion. If you want truth, better go beyond assumptions
peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 17, 2009 - 02:02am PT
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BASE104 -- "There is no authority"
You just made an authority statement .....
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 17, 2009 - 02:16am PT
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Well, I'm sure glad that BASE104's mother seems to be better. Good news! It was worth trawling through everything else.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 17, 2009 - 02:17am PT
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Glad to hear about Mom Base and good to explore dimensions of this life journey with you here on the taco
Peace
Karl
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 17, 2009 - 08:50am PT
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I went to a Christmas party last night, and no wanted to talk of God, Jesus, or anything religious, or any religion.
And we are in the Pope room at Buca Di Beppo where a Pope bust was on the table, and photo's all around the room!
One girl said the Pope didn't believe in the Holocaust? And another said a Pope joke.
And that was it! It makes me sad to see that they can live with no thought of God what so ever!
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 17, 2009 - 11:18am PT
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Base, this news about your Mom just ROCKS!!! So happy to read this. I actually was fighting tears reading it.
A "miracle"? I prefer to think so. And God does work miracles through people and medicine.
Please keep us posted as to her progress. :)
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 17, 2009 - 12:52pm PT
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In the material world the Absolute Authority is one must give up the body at the end of the allotment of breaths, prana.
This is called death.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Dec 17, 2009 - 01:31pm PT
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Gobee, did you try quoting a John MacArthur sermon to them?
That always gets a party kickin!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 17, 2009 - 02:18pm PT
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This is called death.
Agreed. Though I'm always curious why that's not ok. It's already all gravy at this point for me. I have no need of, or interest in, either continuing beyond death or in another go around. What's wrong with simply laying it all down?
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MH2
climber
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Dec 17, 2009 - 04:41pm PT
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I can't believe that I found so much support just talking about religion.
Good choice of words BASE! Especially meaningful given what you've told us about your Mom and your own state of mind. There are shared feelings that people have, and making an effort to share them can be wonderfully helpful.
On religion. There has been pessimism expressed about lack of progress in this arena through written history. And there has been a suggestion that to some Science may become a religion. But surely there has been progress in science?
Someone once tried to make the point that there must be something special and universal about religion because some form of it was found in all societies. My own mother responded to that by saying that in order to make that statement you had to be willing to include patently ridiculous beliefs and practices under the umbrella of religion. The Tooth Fairy will leave money under your pillow for your tooth, for example. In broader terms, what most would call superstition had to be dressed up as religion in order to claim that all peoples in all the jungles and mountains of the world practice something closely related to what Christians do in church on Sundays.
But there is definitely a willingness most people seem to have to believe in something like religion.
One of my own sacred texts contains the following statement. It is italicized in the book, so it's significance cannot be missed:
In this sense there is only one ordered domain whose positive elements are well-ordered, and it is Zed.
"This sense" is; Roughly speaking, isomorphic Rings are the same Ring, but the elements are named differently.
Now, that might be viewed as quasi-religious, and sounds like "there is only one God etc.", but it would be hard to claim that there has been no progress in the past 2000 years.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 17, 2009 - 04:52pm PT
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On the radio today a divorced guy said that he never felt so bad as the day when he saw his son and went to hug him and he pushed him away! I wonder That's how God must feel when we do that?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 17, 2009 - 08:08pm PT
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Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.1) By John MacArthur
I'm to Grace Church tonight for the Christmas concert with full orchestra
and choir! With Bach, Beethoven, and Handel, Cheers!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 18, 2009 - 01:24am PT
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No Bach or Beethoven but a double dose of Handel, and the singing was amazing!
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Dec 18, 2009 - 05:33am PT
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hey there all, say, just stepped in to see how you all are... :)
say--i just made a small song-list to help a gal out this week (for her holiday, as she is far away from home and friends), and there were so many nice little holiday songs from some others gals, too, that know her...
this one caught me eye, 'it came upon the midnight clear'... (that glorious song of odl)...
it seemed like a history trail, come alive of the whole christmas story event--though, many folks DON'T sing them all...
quite a few other gals that shared songs to send this OTHER gal, also liked it---just thought i'd share, as gobe? (think that is how it's spelled, hope i didn't mess up the spelling) had shared some songs, just a minute ago... (say, as an extra note, i loved beethoven's "joy" song quite a lot)... :)
well, as to the "midnight clear" i always like that christmas song---and---when we were little and our mom played the piano and sang the many christmas songs to us... that one also, made the night-even seem so real, to, for me, as a kid... (cold crisp weather, etc, and dark out, and the vast heavens)... and god... :)
*say, i will have to backtrack, and can't do that now, but happy wishes to the one whose mom is well now!! that sounds very wonderul...
well, god bless and good night, all...
this is very busy time now, i am making a project for a gal and it takes a lot of sewing... :)
will come back later and visit... this is very long to catch up on... :O
all for now... :)
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 18, 2009 - 08:46am PT
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Proverbs 18:14, A man's spirit will endure sickness,
but a crushed spirit who can bear?
Matthew 9:12-13, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Dec 18, 2009 - 01:44pm PT
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The problem of someone or anyone mixing science and religion is that the practice of one will always expose problems with the other. They cannot mix. Any scientist that goes to church and then experiments with, and investigates, evolutionary processes is going to have a hard time with things. It is hypocritical to be both a scientist and not an atheist because a true scientist would have absolutely no stake in the outcome of an experiment. So maybe it's fortunate that most scientists are hypocrites or no science would get done if the outcome could contradict the persons belief system. Either that or there are a lot more atheists than thought and a lot of people who won't admit it or acknowledge it.
It works both ways. Any priest, nun, rabbi, pope, etc..., that makes any statement about science or does any science it equally a hypocrite because of their either accepting what contradicts their beliefs or in their bias towards their beliefs.
Wasn't this a science thread to start with and now is just about religion? I recall mention of a missing link in human evolution. After that, there was some talk about Jesus telling some guy how to drive his car, some profound spiritual statements that seem to have come from a Lifetime network B movie, lots of Bible quotes, and this constant discussion that suggests that anyone here can at all understand God.
God does not cry when you push him away. God is all knowing and all seeing and is understanding of you and your problems. After all, God is the cause of all of your problems, having created everything that we are and having created everything around us, including the universe and all of it's potential for science. God created the potential for evil in the hearts of men and created joy and greed equally in us. Don't underestimate God like you do people. God is far more knowing and seeing than the taco can every be.
Or is the taco God?
Dave
P.S. I'm an atheist.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 18, 2009 - 02:10pm PT
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"It is wiser to find out than to suppose" Mark Twain
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 18, 2009 - 02:19pm PT
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The fundamentalists really do pee in the pool of regular, religious churchgoers....
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 18, 2009 - 07:38pm PT
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Oddly enough, it was when I went back to school to get a science degree (first one was a BA) that I started to re-think my agnostic, evolutionary viewpoint.
In studying molecular biology, it just started to occur to me that it was far too intricate and complex to have just evolved after some random "big bang" of energy. None of my professors could explain how the phospholipid bi-layer could have evolved. The more I studied, the less likely it seemed to be that it could have been anything other than intelligent design or intention somewhere along the way. It was still a long, long road to Christ, but I don't feel that I ever gave up my intelligence in exchange for faith. Or that anything required me to.
I love science. I love physics and both "The Tao of Physics" and "The Dancing Wu Li Masters" have been two of my favorite reads.
I know Christians who believe that God sparked the big bang and then nurtured along life on Earth. At the end of the day, I don't know if that aspect is what is truly important. For me, it is more simple: Do I believe that God sent His Son, in the divine person of Jesus, to walk with us and experience humanity before offering Himself up in exchange for my sins and shortcomings? Do I place my trust fully in Him alone? The answer for me, is Yes.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 18, 2009 - 07:53pm PT
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"The fundamentalists really do pee in the pool of regular, religious churchgoers...."
Nice and yellow, lots of vitamins!
God gave us the gift of Jesus; mercy and forgiveness, as with all gifts you have to take them!
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.1) By John MacArthur http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
neebee...
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