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lazide
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 19, 2005 - 11:54am PT
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Machine heads have gone the way of the dodo (can't replace them), aluminum dowels are recognized sketchy - what is the new standard for FA's?
Seems like 1/4"x1 1/2" (or 2"?) Buttonhead Rawl Spikes would do the job - easy to replace, dirt cheap ($16 per 100), more than strong enough.
What say you?
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BKW
Mountain climber
Central Texas
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Jul 19, 2005 - 01:12pm PT
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Tapcons work well for tagging your way up. Am sure they would work well for rivets. Are fairly inexpensive also.
http://www.powers.com/product_02724.html
Very strong for their size and don't require a very big diameter hole. A 1/4" tapcon needs a 3/16" diameter hole and has a tension of 1,140 and a shear sheer of 1,320 at 1" embedment.
At 1 3/4" deep embedment the sheer rises to 2,195 tension and 2,260 sheer this is in hard concrete which is similar to very compact granite.
I have a friend who took a 15' fall on a 1/4" in Mex. and it held.
They also have the benefit of being removeable and reusable although reusing them does increase the chance of them breaking especially in very hard rock or if overtightened.
If you plan on leaving them installed permanentely they come in Stainless Steel.
There is also a new 3/8" zinc coated carbon steel for heavy duty applications but haven't tried those yet.
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lazide
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2005 - 01:17pm PT
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Oh, this is yosemite granite type stuff - I doubt that would work very well (yield strength on compact granite is probably an order of magnitude or two higher than 5k PSI granite). That said, if you could thread it in, it would probably be pretty burly.
Minerals? Anyone?
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Jul 19, 2005 - 05:52pm PT
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Rivet types and re-bolting ethics don’t seem so important with the sad news of the loss of one of the monkeys. But for the rest of us, life goes on.
The 1/4" Spike buttonhead bolts are garbage. I have no idea why, but for some reason, there isn’t enough of a bend in the shaft for the bolt to hold worth a damn (as opposed to their 3/8” counterparts). Who knows where the manufacturer gets their strength ratings on these bolts… The bolts can be hand-placed most of the way into a tight 1/4" hole and only require a few taps of the hammer to fully seat them. They come out of the hole just about as easily as they go in. Not a good bolt. I still have a bag of them leftover from testing – about the only thing that they are good for is hanging a 5 lb. metal sign on a concrete wall… (with 4 of them equalized, that is…)
The standard, carbon steel 1/4" Drive buttonhead is still the best bolt for use as a rivet. This bolt is not available in stainless steel, due to the characteristics of the metal and the design of the bolt (split-shaft).
http://www.powers.com/product_03601.html
The bolt is available in 1 1/4", 1 1/2”, and 2” lengths (as well as longer sizes which are overkill for granite). The 2” bolt is significantly more bomber than the two shorter lengths and should only be used if an existing hole has been cratered/damaged to the point that it needs to be drilled deeper. The 1 1/4" length is good for ‘shorty’ rivets and should be placed as is, without a hanger or washers. The 1 1/2" length is good for a ‘standard’ rivet and should be placed with TWO 5/16” flat washers, in order to keep an RP hanger or cable hanger from popping off of the rivet. Be sure to leave enough clearance between the washers and the rock when placing the bolt such that #3 cable hangers and keyhole hangers will fit between the washers and the rock. The two washers are also used to protect the rock during the removal of the bolt for replacement. The 1/4" Drive buttonhead is the only bolt available (that I know of) that is ‘ethically suitable’ for use as a rivet and can be removed for repeated replacement of the bolt in the same hole.
Basically, the only two types of bolts that we should ever place are the carbon steel 1/4” Drive buttonhead (in various lengths) and the stainless steel 3/8” and 1/2” Rawl/Powers 5/6-piece bolt (in various lengths) because the original hole can be reused for bolt replacement. More details later…
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lazide
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2005 - 06:26pm PT
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Thank you Bryan! It really is too bad what has happened with Erica - I am still holding out hope, but I am afraid it is a lost cause.
I knew it was too good to be true - SS rivets with almost identical ratings (per the manuf) as the drives?! (and not much more expensive!) Thanks for the info - saved me buying some junk I would never use.
I am nearly out of SS rawl 5 pieces - I am getting ready to place an order here soon for 50 more. (will last me years, i'm sure), and I figured I might as well pick up some rivets. (looking at doing some FA's in mumble mumble)
Any idea when the results of your bolt testing will be out? I'm really looking forward to seeing them - wish I could of given you a hand!
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Shack
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jul 19, 2005 - 06:44pm PT
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Hey minerals,
Why not the 3/8" drive buttonheads? Overkill?
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Jul 19, 2005 - 07:47pm PT
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"Any idea when the results of your bolt testing will be out?"
That’s kind of like asking when my other dirt bike will be put back together… Hopefully soon, but I still have a lot of work to do and pictures to deal with. I also have to find my test samples from last year… where in the heck are they…?
"Why not the 3/8" drive buttonheads? Overkill?"
Because they require too much force to place and the rock usually craters around the edge of the hole. They are also very difficult to remove – by the time you do get one out, the hole won’t be worth reusing. We have placed these bolts at belays here and there and they are pretty damn bomber. They are more impractical than overkill.
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lazide
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2005 - 08:13pm PT
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I'm curious - why two washers? Only 1 is too weak and will deform?
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Jul 20, 2005 - 02:09am PT
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Two washers because one washer doesn’t provide enough spacing to prevent an RP hanger from popping off of a 1/4” buttonhead, once it is clipped with a biner. The spacing is also dependent on the diameter of the biner stock – one washer might be ok with a BD oval but two washers are required for a BD Neutrino. Might as well accommodate all biner types, right? The beauty of the combination of a 5/16” grade-5 machine bolt and an RP hanger is that once the hanger is clipped with a biner, it cannot disconnect from the rivet. Since we have now switched to a rivet (bolt) that is removable, such as the 1/4” buttonhead, the addition of two washers is necessary to duplicate the “un-clip-able” combo described above. ‘Normal’ climbers (if there ever was such a thing…) can take the time to place a rivet hanger (of whatever type) behind both washers; speed freaks can place a rivet hanger between the two washers or outside of both washers (quicker, but less secure with slightly more leverage placed on the rivet/bolt).
Two washers provide more clearance between the rock and a tuning fork when they are used to protect the rock during bolt removal. Two washers prevent the head of the bolt from deforming if the bolt decides that it doesn’t want to budge with initial persuasion – the washers support the head of the bolt (but in this case the rock is not protected as well unless a ‘sandwich’ is used).
Two washers because you can’t make a “tuning fork sandwich” with only one washer – half-protection on both the rock and the bolt head. It is possible to deform the head of a ‘welded’ buttonhead with a tuning fork during removal if the tuning fork doesn’t fit tightly on the bolt (i.e. slot too wide) and if the bolt doesn’t have washers (or a bolt hanger). The two washers may not protect the rock as well if the hole is cratered (i.e. the washers seat into the crater, allowing the tuning fork to come into contact with the rock). Etc.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Jul 21, 2005 - 12:01am PT
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Here's a picture of a 1/4" x 1 1/2" Drive buttonhead with two 5/16" washers:
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Oct 19, 2005 - 02:55pm PT
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bump...
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 19, 2005 - 03:03pm PT
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thanks for bumping this Minerals.
I don't understand this:
"The spacing is also dependent on the diameter of the biner stock – one washer might be ok with a BD oval but two washers are required for a BD Neutrino."
What does the type of biner have to do with the rivet hanger coming off? Is it that an Oval is heavier or something?
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Huge Balls
Big Wall climber
Darkside of the Moon
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Oct 19, 2005 - 03:06pm PT
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I love it Minerals
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the Fet
Trad climber
Loomis, CA
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Oct 19, 2005 - 03:07pm PT
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Thanks Minerals.
I see they are selling bolts at REI now, that is SO wrong.
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atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
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Oct 19, 2005 - 03:31pm PT
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"I see they are selling bolts at REI now, that is SO wrong."
I wouldnt lose any sleep over it... in fact, at least they are selling Fixe SS stuff, instead of Rawl crap. Plus, it makes it easy to run in and grab some at lunch. The fear that some noob is gonna go bolt crazy cause they sell em at rei is overblown. The bad bolt jobs I have run across are usually from guides and their companies trying to arrange convenience anchors next to perfect gear placements.
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Oct 19, 2005 - 03:32pm PT
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Why? Every jackass college student climber wannabe should have easy access to bolts right next to this month's issue of what passes for climbing magazines and those carabiner keychains that let EVERYONE within eyesight of your backpack know you climb.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Oct 19, 2005 - 03:41pm PT
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Way too much attention on this thread…
Must publish diatribe information…
Lambone, the biner is what keeps an RP keyhole hanger from popping off of a machine head rivet. Once clipped, the biner blocks the keyhole slot so that the hanger cannot be removed from the rivet. Since the head of a machine head is taller than the head of a buttonhead, washers must be used when using a buttonhead, to make up for the difference. If you have an RP keyhole hanger, different biner types, and some loose bolts/rivets/washers, you can fiddle around with the stuff to see for yourself. Without the use of the washers, the keyhole hanger can pop off, defeating half of the purpose for using a keyhole hanger – at that point, you might as well just use a cable hanger. The diameter of the stock of an oval is larger than the stock of a Neutrino. The diameter of the Neutrino stock doesn’t block enough of the keyhole slot without the use of the two washers.
P.S. – the Fixe stuff IS the crap!
No more freakin’ wedge bolts, DAMNIT!!!!!
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 19, 2005 - 04:35pm PT
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gottcha Minerals, I ussually use the cable hanges, but I guess it's time to pick up some keyholes next trip to the Valley. allways need one good excuse to go buy crap at the mountain shop...
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Oct 19, 2005 - 04:46pm PT
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at least they are selling Fixe SS stuff, instead of Rawl crap
What's the issue with Rawl's? I've always assumed the fact they were easily removable was a pretty good bonus.
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Holdplease2
Trad climber
All over
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Oct 19, 2005 - 05:11pm PT
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Hey Lambone:
Don't count on finding the RP hangers in the Mtn. Shop - I've only found them in stock there a few times, there have been none for months and months and months and... as far as I know, and I am there pretty often.
-Kate.
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