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Gunkie
climber
East Coast US
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 13, 2008 - 09:55am PT
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I'm thinking about having the big toenail on my right foot removed because of toenail fungus. I also have toenail fungus on the adjacent toe, but that doesn't bother me. My fungoid big toenail is beginning to give me serious problems during long hikes and runs, and my climbing shoes put me into agony much more than they should.
Anyone have this done? Recovery time? Complications?
Everything I found online seemed to revolve around diabetics and folks with additional, related problems. I only have toenail fungus and I'm proud to let everyone know.
Thanks.
BTW, stay away from the toenail fungus meds. They put serious strain on your liver. And we all probably put too much strain on that thing already. At least I do [statins + alcohol].
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Aug 13, 2008 - 09:59am PT
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Gunkie
I have fungus there too, but not to the extent you do.
But I'd be afraid to have the nail permanently removed. Has your doc suggested this? Are there any other alternatives/
I'm only asking this because I don't think surgery is necessarily
the best alternative--not from a knowledge standpoint, but
from my gut. I'd hate to lose any part of me if there were
some alternative that might be less 'shock' for the body.
Good luck on it.
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Aug 13, 2008 - 10:14am PT
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It is actually quite amazing what a toe/finger nail does for the usefulness of a digit. More so for the fingers than the toes. I am not talking about using the nail but the nail add rigidity to the end of the digit. Given that I would be very hesitant to have my big toe nail permanently removed. A friend has a couple infected toes as well as and has also given up on treating them. Have you seen a podiatrist?
That said I did have a very small part of one permanently removed because it was always in growing due to climbing.
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jstan
climber
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Aug 13, 2008 - 10:20am PT
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Same here. But removal is irreversable, and unnecessary. Nearly lost the sight of one eye due to the internal medication.
Under no circumstance would I ever again attempt any form of internal medication.
No problem really.
1. Stay as close to barefooted as possible. It is all about moisture.
2. Oddly the biggest help is to leave your feet out from underneath the
covers at night. Huge difference.
3. Clip the nail as short as possible.
Use sandpaper(#60) to thin the entire nail down to the soft
underlayer.
Use T-tree oil or whatever antifungal on top of the thinned nail
4. If you must use shoes keep two or three extra pair of shoes at work
and keep changing. Take them home each day and bake them all out
each night.
If you hike barefooted or something like that you will build up very thick callus which also harbors the fungus. Sandpaper that off. Don't use a belt sander. Develops too much heat.
Edit:
And yes the toenail has a use. When the climbing gets too hard it allows you to chip holds without anyone noticing. Boosts your climbing by at least two grades.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Aug 13, 2008 - 11:05am PT
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Pretty much what Jstan said. In my case I intentionally ripped off more than you should, making a bloody mess (simply sanding down didn't quite do it for me). I then started up a daily regimen of morning and night blasts of athletes foot spray and distilled vinegar. Every few days I'd re-sand (well using an nail filer). Once the new stuff growing back in was bright and pink under the nail i backed off on the sanding, but have kept up hitting the area with athlete's foot spray.
Now my big toe is almost completely grown back and no signs of fungus. My pinky toe still has it, but it doesn't hurt like the big toe did after hiking or thin crack climbing.
YMMV.
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boognish
Trad climber
SF
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Aug 13, 2008 - 11:18am PT
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In addition the the other advice, you might switch to dandruff shampoo. The fungicide in the shampoo works on many fungal infections. It zaps foot funk when it washes off your head and over your feet. Its a good (if indirect) way to get ride of athletes foot and might work on toenails once you have filed down the nail.
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troutboy
Trad climber
Newark, DE
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Aug 13, 2008 - 12:21pm PT
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There is a significant body of anecdotal and some semi-clinical data that suggest Vick's Vapo rub 2X/day on the effected nail can cure the fungus.
The data suggest some improvement after a few days, but complete cure may take several months.
TS
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Aug 13, 2008 - 12:30pm PT
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I had chronic, severe problems with an ingrown and inflamed toenail with climbing shoes. I had the big toenail completely removed and have not regreted it. In fact, if I had it to do again, I would have had the other big toenail removed at the same time.
No complications. Soaked 3 times a day in warm water. It was 4~6 weeks (been a while, can't remember) before I could wear tight climbing shoes.
Now I don't have any problems at all wearing climbing shoes on that foot. The big toe looks a little funny and always has some funky dead skin where the edges of the nail used to be, but I'll take that any day over a toe to inflamed to wear climbing shoes.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Aug 13, 2008 - 12:41pm PT
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Wow that's good to know about the anti-fungal med. I had considered taking that stuff cause I got some serious toenail funk. Mine peel off every few weeks or so and they are ugly as hell (not Dean Fidelman ugly but ugly enough).
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JOEY.F
Social climber
sebastopol
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Aug 13, 2008 - 02:31pm PT
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Jstan wrote,
Don't use a belt sander. Develops too much heat.
LOL!!!
I've got it too, and in addition to all the good advice,
try a 20 to 1 solution of H2O to bleach for topical treatment, works for me.
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Gunkie
climber
East Coast US
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 13, 2008 - 02:41pm PT
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Jstan wrote,
Don't use a belt sander. Develops too much heat.
LOL!!!
I actually tried a Dremel tool once. Ouchies. And the thing is, the heat doesn't dissipate too quickly.
I like the 60 grit idea, particularly because my nail is quite malformed at this point. Tee-tree oil, chlorine solutions, dandruf shampoo, if I mix all of that stuff together I'll probably creat chlorine gas or some deadly toxin... but maybe it will get rid of the fungi. I did treat jock itch with absorben junior in college. That hurt a lot, but it worked very quickly.
Thanks for the responses!
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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Aug 13, 2008 - 02:47pm PT
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You balance yourself with your bog toe, so walking might need some adj.
Had a friend lose a big toe, limped like a mofo.
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10b4me
climber
the gray bands
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Aug 13, 2008 - 09:21pm PT
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not sure removing a toenail will solve the problem. the infection is in the toenail bed. need to treat at the source. use topical remedies only.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Aug 13, 2008 - 09:25pm PT
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I've had a combination of nail fungus and other foot fungi. Never took the internal meds, sounded like the cure was worse than the symptoms.
One thing I found was going to a low sugar low carb diet seems to starve the buggers out.
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JOEY.F
Social climber
sebastopol
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Aug 13, 2008 - 09:37pm PT
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How about a photo contest?
The mind reels.......
be careful of what you ask
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AbeFrohman
Trad climber
new york, NY
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Aug 13, 2008 - 09:53pm PT
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there is another very similar looking issue to nail fungus, that is much like dandruff, called "Nail Psoriasis."
it looks like
I was misdiagnosed with fungus back in about '99, and took lamisil pills for 6 weeks. Doc only warned "its a bit rough on the liver, so no drinking." Had I known at the time HOW rough on the liver, i would have skipped it, especially knowing that it wasn't a damn fungus at all.
and dont get me started on face dandruff (seborrhea). 3 kinds of dandruff shampoo is the only thing that keeps it in check!
I've read in a few places on internet forums of people pulling out a nail, and having it grow back in totally normal. i dont buy it though.
my father in law has horrendous toe nail fungus, there isnt even enough nail to grab to pull off if he wanted to!
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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Aug 13, 2008 - 11:57pm PT
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I have ripped off my big toe nail so many times it is sick. Lucky for me I always have a good supply of pain killers.
I would obsessivly play with the toenail. My Zeprexa put a stop to that.
My Big Toe Nail came off again a few weeks back. The whole thing down to the root. No pain. That is probally about 20th time.
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beefy
Trad climber
Adelaide, Australia
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Aug 14, 2008 - 12:32am PT
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I had the nail on my 2nd toe removed . guess it had been damaged from years of abuse in climbing shoes and mountain boots and it grew if a a slight angle and caught on shoes etc.
now i have no more issues with the nail. a good calous has grown over where the nail once was. podiatrist said might be sore for up to a week after op but didnt feel it after 1st day.
toenails serve no purpose really (unless you want to paint them!)
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 17, 2008 - 02:28pm PT
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Another control tactic is to regularly remove the footbeds (insoles) from your shoes, and wash them. Perhaps even use a little bleach. Don't put them in the dryer - dry them in direct sunshine. This helps kill the bugs living in/on the footbeds, that are often the same things as are living on your skin.
It may be possible to wash shoes in a similar manner, although a commmercial washer would be needed.
Simply removing footbeds, and ensuring that they and the shoes get a good drying, also helps.
In hot weather, a temporary treat is to put your footbeds in the freezer, then just before going out, to insert them in your shoes. Cool, dry feet!
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the museum
Trad climber
Rapid City, SD
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Aug 17, 2008 - 07:45pm PT
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I did it - it worked but it is really a botch job. The fungus is gone but now I have half grown nails and saw them off with a Dremmel tool. It was worth it - just do it in NOVEMBER.
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couchmaster
climber
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Aug 17, 2008 - 10:33pm PT
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The museum...you did ...What?
I have one, and I screwed up and used the same toenail clipper to do my other big toe and now it's getting it. I can totally make the pain go away by digging with the awl on the Swiss army knife. I just slip it under there by the edge where the toenail comes out of the skin and crank it up. If I get a piece of nail that looks sharp sticking out from doing this, I pull it out with a fine nosed pair of pliers.
Seriously.
However, I'm thinking Jstan might have most of the solution...so I'll try that.
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Double D
climber
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Aug 18, 2008 - 12:33am PT
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Dremel Tool! Had to laugh, been there done that. (-;
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rich sims
Trad climber
co
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Aug 18, 2008 - 01:10am PT
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Gunkie
My Dad was a Frogman, Navy Diver. Not sure if he had fungus but he had really bad end grown toe nails. (Big Toe) He had the sides removed so he still had the nail down the center of his toe.
Not sure if it would help your problem but it fixed his end grown nails.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Aug 18, 2008 - 10:15am PT
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There is a significant body of anecdotal and some semi-clinical data that suggest Vick's Vapo rub 2X/day on the effected nail can cure the fungus.
I don't know if it really cures it, but, it does seem to keep it at bay and does make the toes smell nice.
Been using it for about a year and a half...
Best thing for me is to be diligent about keeping the dead nail areas clipped off, and, clean up all the loose junk. Then if they stay relatively dry, seems to help.
A friend is on the lamisil treatment. A few months into it. Then he finds out it might not cure him anyhow, and, he'll probably just pick it up again...
-Brian in SLC
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Zetedog
Trad climber
PGH, PA
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Aug 18, 2008 - 10:18am PT
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I don't really know about the usefulness of toe nails - I got stepped on by a horse, mine fell out and never grew back. The doctor I went to see (after the trampling, but before I learned it wouldn't come back) stated that he'd only gave it a 20% chance to grow back and that it shouldn't effect anything. He was partially right - the only lasting problem is that I get bitter when I have to contort myself to clip the rest of my toe nails.
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Gunks Guy
Trad climber
Rhinebeck, NY
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Aug 18, 2008 - 12:05pm PT
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Do you think I should do anything about my toenails?
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Aug 18, 2008 - 02:49pm PT
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Don't do it, you wanna end up like Cosgrove?
bet my fungus can beat your fungus, live with it.
I rarely use the dremel on my toes, but really do put it to my heels from time to time...
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jrenee
climber
Denver, CO
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Aug 18, 2008 - 04:10pm PT
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Have you tried going to a Chinese Doctor and getting acupuncture + Chinese Herbs?
It's been around for 10,000 years... time-tested.
Might be worth a shot.
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the museum
Trad climber
Rapid City, SD
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Aug 18, 2008 - 08:25pm PT
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I had both great toenails removed. The fungus was super bad in the one and it spread to the other. And it was spreading to the next toes. Now half the nails kinda grew back - super thick. In order to trim uncle nasty's I have to grind them off. It's kinda crazy. The fungus is gone though!
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nail-less commenter
climber
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Jun 25, 2009 - 03:53pm PT
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Back when I still had toenails, I got rid of my toenail fungus by using a Q-tip to apply white vinegar twice a day. I skipped ONE application and I had to start the six-month process all over again, but it worked. Avoid the pills like the plague, they are hell on your body, liver in particular, and taking them every day for months (which is what is needed to kill a nail fungus) is lunacy.
I would advise any male to get all ten toenails permanently removed (do it at the beginning of a vacation so you'll be fully ambulatory when you return to work). I did so and am not even an athlete. Toenails are useless and can cause too many problems, not to mention the annoyance of having to trim them.
Here are me dogs three years after:
http://tinyurl.com/AllTenPlates
Wish I'd done it a long time ago. You have to look around, though, since most podiatrists won't do it merely because you ask for it. Find a doctor who doesn't completely reject the idea out-of-hand, then keep asking every year till he agrees to do it.
Good riddance to the damned useless Martian things.
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AbeFrohman
Trad climber
new york, NY
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Jun 25, 2009 - 04:11pm PT
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WOW that looks weird!
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Gene
climber
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Jun 25, 2009 - 04:24pm PT
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No wonder your screen name is Gunkie!
What did you end up doing?
My daughter had a similar issue. A dermotologist fixed it in what sounded like a counter-intuitive way. The idea is this: the fungus grew because her immunity system couldn't handle that specific fungal variety. So he introduced other fungi to the area which resulted in an immunity response that took all of them out. It worked.
gm
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 25, 2009 - 04:25pm PT
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uuuuhm- yeah- great way to spend a vacation!
i have heard, and this will sound like a joke but it's not, that peeing on them regularly works great, or even soaking them in urine for a short period each day.
what's the big deal?
pee in pot, insert toes, drink coffee, poop, shower, go to work...
ps- toes are fine, nails are fine, still got all 10, no pot-peein needed ova here!
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perswig
climber
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Jun 25, 2009 - 04:25pm PT
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Toenails, foreskins; body parts being removed left and right.
Yer a twisted bunch.
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Rob_James
Ice climber
Aoraki/Mt. Cook Village, New Zealand
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Jun 25, 2009 - 04:39pm PT
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My right hallux (big toe) nnail was removed 6 years ago - complications from sitting through a bunch of cold days.
I had the "Zadik" procedure. Scored a local anaesthetic and no pain for the first day. It then started to 'tickle' and throb a bit, but prescribed doses of Ibuprofen worked well for the next 2 weeks.
Strictly NO weight bearing on the right foot for a week. Could walk fine after a week and a half no problems. Climbing again after 4 weeks without discomfort.
The crux of recovery may well be a fastidious approach to clean feet.
After a year, it 'appeared' as though the toenail had kinda regrown. But it doesn't. My procedure was permanent. I've not noted any loss/increase in sensitivity.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jun 25, 2009 - 04:43pm PT
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Edge much?
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JohnRoe
Trad climber
State College, PA
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just had this procedure (both great toes) yesterday - after many painful climbing seasons. Feels good so far :-)
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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climbed with a guy that had crabs....he sprayed raid on his crotch which burned like crazy and got rid of the vermin....he told his friend not to tell anyone about the Raid but of course his friend had to broadcast it....mono lake water helps some with the toe fungus and slathering your python boot in vicks also seems to help...rj
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LuckyPink
climber
the last bivy
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hey you guys.. you CAN go to get a pedicure.. there are many more guys in there now.. all the manicurists are darling little vietnamese, laotian or thai women.. this makes it fun for you..they know their business and will fix your nails and no they don't expect you to use nail color.. but they do have black and dark green.. bright orange.. shiny gold
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bajaandy
climber
Escondido, CA
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Lost a lot of nails over the years from banging around in ski boots, mountain boots, climbing shoes... Never had a problem until one day I dropped a full sheet of plywood on my big toe. Blasted the damn thing right off my foot. Painful to say the least. Biotch of it was, when it grew back it got the fungus. Doc advised not to use the systemic med because a) it's hard on your system and b) the fungus might come back.
So, here's what I've been doing: I mixed a 50/50 batch of Listerine mouth wash and vinegar. Put it in a spray bottle and douse the offending appendage morning and night. Been at it for almost two months now. It's actually starting to look better. Somthing about the antiseptic quality of the mouthwash and the acidity of the vinegar making it difficult for the little fungi to live. Looks like its working.
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James Doty
Trad climber
Idyllwild, Ca.
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It is an immune system disfunction. Try the Chinese arts.
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jh1000
climber
slc
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Sand and cut that sucker down. I have to go to work on mine every couple of months.
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