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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 22, 2004 - 01:47am PT
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OK a reprint for some of you, but perhaps news to others. This info in response to the James Lucas thread and perhaps too morbid for some. There is data related to falls in terms of various fractures and fatalities. This extracted from a plot in Climbing magazine, the data are taken from suicide attempts in NYC from buildings thus the heights are well known.
height:................10'...20'...30'...40'...50'...60'...70'...80'...90'..100'..110'
% probability of:
limb fracture:......41 ...63 ...70 ...76 ...80 ...82 ...85 ...88 ...90 ..93 ...94
spine fracture:......5 ...10 ...13 ...16 ...20 ...23 ...27 ...29 ...31 ..33 ...35
death:..................2 ....7 ...12 ...21 ...35 ...49 ...62 ...74 ...83 ...92 ...95
The maximum acceleration the human body can withstand is around 20 g's, a limit that is set by the mechanical strength of the Aorta. Making various assumptions it can be shown that a fall from 60' corresponds to the limiting acceleration by stopping. The table shows that this is the 50% fatality point, which is in agreement with the estimate.
There are variations in the acceleration of the body which cause fatality below this height and survival above this height. There are many dramatic stories of surviving falls from height, don't count on it, people who do survive are bucking the odds big time.
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James
Gym climber
City by the Bay
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Sep 10, 2005 - 12:27am PT
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I just found this post.
I'm so excited to hear that I escaped a 50% chance of death with all my charm and good looks.
Sick!
Excuse me, I have to go do add some probablities. I fell twice so 60' plus 30' with each probability being.....
Thanks for the laugh Ed. HA!
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 10, 2005 - 12:38am PT
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Like the lifer prisoner who spends his whole life in jail and has forgotten his true freedom when turned loose to the outside world and free, he can not quite function anymore. Quickly he finds his way back to the jail he falsely believes is his home and his security. Thus upon his return he is happy in his delusion.
That means you had more jail time James, just like the rest of us.
Welcome back ……..
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Holdplease2
Trad climber
All over
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Sep 10, 2005 - 12:40am PT
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Hey M, if you see this - Look at the stats between 30 and 40 feet...
Wow, eh? I think I'm gonna buy me a beer.
And who in NYC tries to commit suicide from 10 feet up? I mean, maybe in Iowa where there aren't as many tall buildings, but c'mon.
-Kate.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2005 - 01:00am PT
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Dude, it's probablility... you roll the dice and you win, sometimes... but you roll the dice enough times and Lady Luck will have her's.
Think Columbia, think Challenger... you don't get luckier with each successful roll... you have the same luck.
So you can fall and live..... the tables tell you that... but you can fall and die too.
Like my teachers taught me 35 years ago, if you go soloing, don't fall.
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James
Gym climber
City by the Bay
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Sep 10, 2005 - 01:06am PT
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The most important lesson I've learned from climbing is a Michael Schaffer pearl.
"Just don't let go."
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 10, 2005 - 01:07am PT
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James are you a dice rolling climber?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Straight Outta Squamton
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Sep 10, 2005 - 01:09am PT
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And especially, don't let go on a busy weekend with a sh#t-load of people watching...
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James
Gym climber
City by the Bay
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Sep 10, 2005 - 01:12am PT
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Werner,
Not anymore. Sorry to disappoint. I've had to trade occupations.
1st A dice rolling climber.
2nd A nice soloing mimer
3rd A rice doling rhymer.
Got to get that kharma back somehow.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2005 - 01:15am PT
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Kate, you ever live in NYC? a very broad cross section of humanity in every respect.
People who are attempting suicide are not known for their intellectual grasp of the implications of what they are doing... jumping out of your apartment on the first floor probably isn't all that unlikely... and not only that, the fatality rate is finite.
When I get back home (in Detroit now) I'll look up the reference....
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Straight Outta Squamton
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Sep 10, 2005 - 01:17am PT
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I saw someone take a 70-footer onto a concrete sidewalk a few months ago.
I would rather knott have to see anything like that again.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 10, 2005 - 02:05am PT
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Falling is perfectly safe. I don't believe those numbers.
Hitting, on the other hand, is deadly
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Holdplease2
Trad climber
All over
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Sep 10, 2005 - 02:27am PT
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Ed...yeah, I lived in NYC for 5 years. I know what you are talking about.
-Kate.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sep 10, 2005 - 07:08am PT
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Well, as for people committing suicid and their apptitude, and you might find this shocking, more than a few shoot themselves and fail to kill on the first shot.
So they try again.
The record around this town is 5 times before success.
About climbers falling and suicide jumpers jumping, I don't think the two would match up very well until after the height becomes great. The jumper is trying to die, while the climber is trying to live. People who practice falling can do things to avoid injury at least up to a certain height, while someone wanting to ensure death might well go head first.
In other words, for some climbers at least, (those who do not fall in a blind panic, rather they try to do all they can to make the best of a bad deal) randomness does not apply.
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Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
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Sep 10, 2005 - 09:35am PT
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Aid falls are pretty random. The backdive I pulled off the Trip only turned out OK cuz there was nothing to hit.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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Sep 10, 2005 - 10:53am PT
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Falls often come as a complete surprise, and many falls do not afford the time or opportunity to fall carefully.
Even from a height of circa 2', a fall can come as a great surprise, bones can break (or worse), and the faller is not afforded the time to do anything but smack the ground and see what luck has in store for them.
Be careful out there.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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Sep 10, 2005 - 10:58am PT
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As far as suicide, determination may be the bigger force leading to "success". A friend of mine on the police force for over twenty years related this story to me recently.
The officers went to a hotel where a man had killed himself in a way none of the officers had ever seen, let alone heard of. The victim brought with him a circular saw, then commenced to cut across each thigh. Then a cut from the groin up to the chest. And finally, a cut across his throat. These cuts were to the bone - no hesitation cuts here.
This is the definition of determination. Just horrible.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 10, 2005 - 12:32pm PT
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Yep, Crimpi we’ve seen some odd behavior
We had a guy once jump off a 900 foot cliff for a suicide attempt. In his desperation for absolving his internal pain he was blinded by his judgment and failed to identify the steepest drop. He looked instead for the easiest and quickest accessible launch and jumped.
Oops! It was a long low angle slab of hundreds of feet. He came to a stop on a ledge. He took his shoes off and set them neatly together off to the side and jumped again.
This time successful …….
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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Sep 10, 2005 - 01:12pm PT
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Poor guy.
I feel soooo sad for those driven to do this. It cannot be an easy thing to do - unless one is totally and completely tormented. Anyone living with such utter pain is something that should make us all very sad.
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