Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 71 of total 71 in this topic |
Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 6, 2006 - 06:06pm PT
|
Hey campers, please welcome John Stannard to ST land. He has posted about 15 times in the last 3 months. We need to draw him out and get him to tell us stories about time before time.
If I ever met John it was only a brief social introduction, but I certainly knew about him from the stories told by John Bragg and Steve Wunsch who were pals when they came to the Valley.
For the ST campers who don't know, jstan is John Stannard, one of the major 'sparks' that created the early 1970s hard free climbing. By way of introduction, from an article published in Rock and Ice in 1994:
"...When Stannard free climbed the eight-foot wide Shawangunks roof on Foops in 1967, it changed climbers' perceptions about what was possible. It was five years before anyone else could repeat it. For many years, Foops was among the hardest climbs in this country, and a "destination climb" for foreign visitors. Through the mid seventies, Stannard continued creating some of the hardest climbs in the world, while introducing a revolutionary idea -- repeated falling. Jim Erickson, comments, "Stannard saw that if you could fall three or four times, you could fall twenty-five times." More than anyone, Stannard shaped the course of contemporary climbing.
"...By 1970, as more climbers entered the sport, Stannard worried the greater numbers would exacerbate land and rock erosion, and undermine the quality of the climbing experience. Aid climbing particularly concerned him, because of its greater wear on rock.
"In his campaign to free climb the remaining aid routes, Stannard enlisted the help of the next generation of Gunks stars: Wunsch, Bragg, and Barber. Kindred spirits with the requisite physical talents, under Stannard's influence, they began to chance more falls and push into higher grades.
"Their efforts were wildly successful, producing many of the enduring hard Shawangunks classics. Of 33 aid routes existing in 1972, two years later, they had free climbed all but two. Russ Clune, who freed the last, Twilight Zone, earlier this year, sums up Stannard's success. "He persuaded people that free climbing was the hip thing to do."
"In tribute, the other admiring Gunks climbers dubbed Stannard and company, "The Front Four." Rich Romano says, "Everything they did made news. We considered them the "A Team" and we were the "B Team." When other climbers repeated the Front Four routes several years later, they joked they made, "The First Human Ascents."
Best, Roger
|
|
Gunkie
climber
East Coast US
|
|
Holy crap! Where's my chalk bag? And yes I've done Foops @ 5.10 A0. Just had to pull on the sling to get out there... Thankgoodness for fixed pins :)
|
|
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
He was also instrumental in promoting the use of nuts over pitons.
Ken
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
My friend Roger threatened to do this. I think I need to defend myself right away. First of all I suggest you not believe everything you read. Like Roger and everyone else, I was just a climber doing something I loved. As chance would have it I do have a story but about something that happened today.
I am frequenting a bagpiping site that is loaded with incredibly talented people. I'm a hanger-on if you will. Yesterday a thread developed which got down to who is a Grade 1 piper and who is not. So I include my post and the post following from Wulls, a really interesting sort and moderator from Scotland. The thread was located in "The Beer Tent" forum and Stuart Cassells is a very well known piper who can reduce a pub to a shrieking bedlam just by picking up his pipes.
JES
Holy smoking keyboard! (>1000 posts)
Member # 4089
posted September 06, 2006 09:15 AM
----------------------------------------------------------------
If this were the music forum I might feel more confident in making a comment. Let me try anyway. This thread is going in the wrong places IMHO. What is it that makes the forum so enjoyable and useful? For me it is that this is a place where chanter students and established recognized artists can talk almost as equals. Both are trying to improve. Both love the music. And we all want to learn. That commonality is enough to permit us all simply to bypass any inclination to compare grades.
Who would not want to be in a place where Stuart Cassells can come on and say, “Easy folks. I am not all that good.” As to the issues in this particular discussion I am prepared to follow Master Cassells and say, “I am not all that RIGHT.” I am not even sure I understand what has happened.
------------
John Stannard
----------------------------------------------------------------
Wulls
Moderator
Member # 2239
posted September 06, 2006 10:05 AM
----------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by JES:
If this were the music forum I might feel more confident in making a comment. Let me try anyway.
----------------------------------------------------------------
More than a good try John.........
I thought about mobving this to pipe bands or music or something........
Hell as long as it stays civil.......
------------
It's not knowing the answers that is important.....It's knowing where to find the answers......
----------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 1770 | From: Ellon, Scotland | Registered: Nov 2002
I don't suppose this is relevant to climbers.
Cheers,
|
|
Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
|
|
Wow!! A legend from my younger days for sure. He has much about everything also in this great read! He and Henry's FFA of Vertigo was truly a motivational milestone in my future climbing endeavors!
|
|
Aya
Ice climber
New York
|
|
Well, as a relative young'un and a gunkie, I just need to say... uhm... hi John!
I'm not really climbing quite hard enough (maybe face-y 10c on an excellent day) to have done most of your FAs, and to me you're still just one of those crazy guys who used to climb crazy stuff back in the day (and makes me wonder why it is with all my lovely "modern" gear I still don't have half the balls y'all did) and I think you're going to have to post more to help me believe that you're a real person!!
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
The West
|
|
Salutations, and welcome to this branch of the dysfunctional fold. Another name with a voice. Fooops is one of those routes I've always wanted to go fall off of.
|
|
TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
|
|
I'm with AYA on this one. How do we know he's not Jerome Stanford or Julie Stanhope?
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
John, you're really starting to get around these days - welcome to the virtual ditch...
|
|
happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
|
|
Yes John - Please post!
From Happiegrrrl - just another young(climbingwise anyway) Gunkie who appreciates the groundwork you laid in doing trail work at the place. I don't think I will ever be able to climb any of the FA's you're known for...unless you did any 5.5's or less in the area.....
|
|
Aya
Ice climber
New York
|
|
I should probably have chosen my words better, because I now realize that the reason I don't have half the balls JS does is because I'm a girl....
And Happie... some day when I come up for air (wow I'm so busy through December!) we'll go climb Higher Stannard together - it's not too hard - I'm sure you could do it!
|
|
john hansen
climber
|
|
Once Me and my ex showed up in Estes Park on a friday night in early Sept. We had been camping for three nights straight and were looking for a hotel. No such luck,, it seem there was a scottish highlander festival in town. We ended camping again about 20 miles outside of town. But the next morning were rewarded by seeing a parade with about 50 full on BagPipe bands.
Very impressive with all the diffrent clan colors, kilts and large furry hats and booming Bass drums.
Ever been to that one Mr Stannard?
|
|
elcap-pics
climber
Crestline CA
|
|
Yo.. I knew John back in the 60's in the DC area when he was a great climber and I was a pud.... unfortunately I am still a pud! Nice to hear from and about John again.
Tom Evans
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
|
|
Hello, John. I hope you're well.
John Long
|
|
Thomas
Trad climber
The Tilted World
|
|
Climbing issue 241 includes a great quote from John Stannard in response to the question "Why trad?"
"While climbing on the lead you must build a protection system, but more importantly you must know just how much to ask of it. And when you use only natural features for that protection, an entity or reality vastly larger than ourselves enters the conversation. For me, that conversation is the essence."
This passage hit me like a ton of bricks when I read it for the first time. It so eloquently describes committing climbing and completely resonates with my view of the vertical world and our place in it.
So, Mr. Stannard, or anyone else who cares to comment, let's here more about that "conversation"...
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Haha they all eventually come thru this virtual door ......
Hello John, welcome .........
|
|
Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
|
|
Hey John, I'll still help you install the swamp cooler in the JT place, but you'll need to lay-in a substantial amount of beer before-hand.....
.........the good kind.
Curt
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
The black and white image of John hanging one armed on the Foops lip in the Red Williams guide always fired my imagination (which was about as close as I was going to get to being there). I have looked at that route from lots of angles and watched many climbers work the moves... inspired vision saw the way first time through, and changed the conception of what was possible.
"Like Roger and everyone else, I was just a climber doing something I loved."
Words to live by.
Welcome John!
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
Well geez,
'Nother Icon, a Virtual God of the outback lands of climberville steps into the fracas.
We welcome you with noble salutations and regal proclamations,
As well as all the ruff-house treatment duly (daily-weekly-monthly-kindly) afforded the rest of uz...
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
|
|
someone pass me a beer and stoke the campfire a bit.
anyone get any climbing done this weekend?
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
I hate to say this but it all was not really that serious. Here I will tell a story on two people( really excellent climbers both) who potentially will no longer be my friends.
When headed off on the carriage road to do a climb, these two guys would link elbows and skip down the road while singing in falsetto. At one time they had worked up 100 verses. Unfortunately I remember only the chorus but you can tell what the rest must have been like.
5.10
5.10
We are off to do 5.10.
We leap and bound
And hit the ground
5.10
5.10
If the rock had had eyes to see them and ears to hear this I almost think it would have decided, "Maybe these nasty creatures are not so bad after all?"
I truly hope so.
|
|
SteveW
Trad climber
Denver, CO
|
|
Hi John
Steve Williams in Denverland. Don't know if you remember
me from the old Carderock days, helping pull your piano
out of your house eons ago, but welcome. I still remember
your work picking up trash in the Gunks and working to
save Yosemite back then.
|
|
Aya
climber
New York
|
|
So can we get some names??
What a tease!
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
John ain't gonna get away with "defending" himself that easily.
I think Stannard had more to do with the elimination of pitons and the conversion to passive pro in this country than any other climber. Yes, of course, we needed Chouinard to make the gear, and Doug Robinson to sing the praises of clean climbing, but it was Stannard who realized that you could do new routes at the hardest level of the day without pitons. Starting up a new route that was likely to be 5.11 with just a rack of nuts was a hypothetical activity until John showed, over and over again, that it was quite possible, at least for him. The influence of his example and his effect on the "next" generation (Barber, Bragg, and Wunsch) revolutionized climbing.
I wonder how many climbers today could repeat Stannard's routes, ground-up as he did them, with only the gear he used (a rack of stoppers and some hexes). Hail to one of the Masters of our sport!
|
|
hardman
Trad climber
love the eastern sierras
|
|
John do you have a good story to go along with any of these climbs?
John Stannard's contributions
Trapps
Low E
Stirrup Trouble
Kama Stura
PR
Higher Stannard
Interstice
Beatle Brow Buldge
Country Roads
Help
Mans Quest for Flight
Erect Direction
Doubleissima
Wasp Stop
Climb & Punishment
Kligfields Follies
Near Trapps
Criss
Criss Cross (to the top)
Sling Time
Swing Time
Fat Stick Direct
Generation Gap
Fat City
To Have or Have Not (5.12R crux Nut was placed w/ a coathanger)
Millbrook
Rib Cracker
White Corner
New Frontier
Swinging C#&%
Sweet Meat
Strange City
Garden of Allah
Promise of Things to come
Remembrance of Things past
Never Again (backed off this last year, let's hear about your adventure)
Skytop
Foops
No Exit
Crack of Bizarre Delights
True Grip 1st p
Mellow Yellow
Up Against the Wall
Crash and Burn
Half Assid
Also
Persistent
Stannard’s Roof
Now there's one sweet tick list!
John I have to chat with you one day about other areas in the gunks.
|
|
Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 7, 2006 - 04:50pm PT
|
Hey John, reading your little vignette, I immediately pictured stout John and slight Steve skipping and singing their ditty in falsetto.
Now, we aint gonna accept that you did all those new routes, in an unheard of style, conversing with your nuts and slings, simply because you loved doing it? We all loved to climb—it is not a distinguishing characteristic.
On a serious note, Steve brought a powerful message to the Valley in those early years: climb clean, work your ass off on new routes, and back off if you couldn't do it free. He channeled you to the rest of us.
Best, Roger
|
|
wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
|
|
I certainly don't want to hijack this thread but I have a trivia question. No cheating now. Name the belayer on the cover of Climb pictured earlier in this thread.
Welcome Mr. Stannard. I'm looking forward to reading more of your posts.
|
|
Omot
Trad climber
The here and now
|
|
John, thanks for your vision and hard work putting up all those test pieces. I've fallen off both Foops and Stannard's Roof.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
I have a problem. I can post replies to you all but this would keep bumping the thread, which is rather discourteous toward everyone else. How about if I gather all those who have expressed interest into an email list and do a collected reply by personal email?
For the rest of this post I want to respond to the pretty general interest in stories. I can lie pretty good but I do have a story written out for me by someone you all know would never ever lie. Hans Kraus. I have to introduce this with a sentence or five. Perhaps you all have also noticed how we receive kindnesses, unbidden, every day? In the early 70’s I had no choice but to deal with the rock damage issue and I needed Hans’s help with the mostly free newsletter I started in order to get people talking to each other. Despite his insanely busy work schedule Hans was so kind as to spend the time it took to carefully write out in English (his second language) an account of the first ascent of High Exposure. As Thom Scheuer used to say – Enjoy.
High Exposure*
by Hans Kraus
Many years ago, in 1941, Fritz Wiessner and I walked home from a day of climbing at Mohonk. In those days there were hardly more than a dozen people climbing in this area and very few routes had been put up in the Trapps. We did not have to look for a free space between two climbs to map a new line. We would look up at the cliff and if we found a corner, a ridge, or a face that appealed to us and made us curious how it would feel to be there, we climbed it. As Fritz and I walked home after a pleasant day, we passed Sleepy Hollow and as we looked up the cliff we saw this huge roof jutting out over a beautiful ridge that caught our eyes. I wondered if it could be climbed.
The next week Fritz and I tried. It was a beautiful day and as I climbed up the first rope length, the rock felt warm and pleasant. We had tied into double hemp ropes, for nylon was not known at that time. These ropes were rather heavy and they were not as reliable as nylon ropes, so a double rope was advisable for any new climb that might prove difficult. After reaching the end of the corner, I found a good stand and asked Fritz to follow. From here it was possible to get over to the ridge that looked steep and beautiful in the sun. A ledge led out from the corner and on to the next rope length. It was good clean rock leading out to the airy ledge and it was a real pleasure to climb up to the big terrace under the forbidding ceiling.
After Fritz had followed and tied himself to a rock, I started out after looking once more at the half-dozen pitons and ten carabiners hanging at my side. The pitons were of the vertical and transverse variety. There was only one ring angle, a new army piton that had been given to us for testing. It wasn’t too difficult to get under the roof but there the world seemed to end. A little ledge would serve as a foothold beyond the roof, but it would mean I was committed to the climb, and I didn’t know how it was going to go on. So I placed a piton, put in a small carabiner chain (we had no slings) reached out with my left arm, pulled my body out from underneath the overhang, and in one move stood on the ledge. From here the rock went up very steeply and gave me the feeling of being on the rocks of the Dolomites that I love. At first however, I was quite afraid and only happy when I had placed a second piton and I had snapped the rope into the carabiner. Then I moved out to the left and halfway up found a good place for the ring piton. I hung in and stood there for a long time. The exposure was beautiful. Turning left, I gained the upper part of the ridge and climbed out.
Fritz followed quickly, as we used to in those days, left in place all three of the pitons we had used. We sat there and looked over the valley, a valley that was very quiet with very few houses. We looked down on the dirt road that is now 299 and it lay quiet without any cars. Then we coiled our ropes and walked home.
Home in the Gunks in those days was the Bayards Inn and that is where we always left our car. We considered the walk to and from the place a pleasant warmup. After dinner we walked out into the yard and looked at the dark hills and the valley that lay dark and quiet with very few lights. We went back to bed to rest for another day of climbing.
*Copyright: The Eastern Trade – Aug. 1972
|
|
Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 7, 2006 - 09:26pm PT
|
Nice write up from Hans Kraus, John. Talk about a magical era: ” We would look up at the cliff and if we found a corner, a ridge, or a face that appealed to us and made us curious how it would feel to be there, we climbed it.” Can’t get any simpler than that.
John wrote, “I can post replies to you all but this would keep bumping the thread, which is rather discourteous toward everyone else. How about if I gather all those who have expressed interest into an email list and do a collected reply by personal email?”
John, your sense of courtesy in killing this thread is misplaced. You may have noticed that collectively we want more climbing posts on the front page, not fewer. Not everyone will want to read what you post, but my guess is that many will, even if they don’t respond. There is plenty of evidence that lots of folks read carefully and appreciate good climbing posts but don’t participate in the give and take.
So, post up, boldly.
|
|
cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
|
|
Second that. It's what this forum is *supposed* to be all about. Wouldn't mind seeing this thread knock any number of Private Life Drama topics down to page 2 limbo.
|
|
Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
|
|
John,
It's the internet. You're supposed to keep on posting--that's why Willie invented it.
Curt
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
I'll bump. I don't think it inconsiderate to repopulate the front page with items actually pertaining to climbing.
Here's John on a Valley classic in 1970. On the next pitch, an unprotected chimney, I ingeniously arranged to drop a sling with every wide piton we had on it. I had turned around twice in the chimney, switching the gear slings to the outside each time, and somehow the sling with all the bongs ended up just pinched between the others and not on my neck and shoulder at all. This should have been the end of the climb, but the sling went down 300 feet and hung up on a twig about the size of my thumb, and our two ropes tied together just barely reached it.
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
Stannard in JT in the 80's. (Photo by Curt Shannon)
|
|
steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
|
|
Stannard in J-Tree (Indian Cove), circa 2001...
Can't recall the name of the route, but it was a 5.11
Note the 2" swami...
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
Rich, is that the west face of Sentinel, the famous expanding flake pitch?
|
|
Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
|
|
Very cool thread to bump. John Stannard is one of the bright stars here!
|
|
jogill
climber
Colorado
|
|
Hey John . . . how are you doing, old-timer? Aging is a whole new world, isn't it?
|
|
murcy
Gym climber
sanfrancisco
|
|
Just a facelift pic:
John had taken all his camping stuff on public transportation all the way from god knows where to the Valley. The young bucks working with him on a heavy-crap-removal project were lost for words.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
Where is John these days? I've missed his posts.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
I have a suspicion that he's working on his cottage at Joshua Tree. Don't think he has internet there. Or perhaps other travels, or the vicissitudes of life.
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
MH: Rich, is that the west face of Sentinel, the famous expanding flake pitch?
Yes. Originally rated A5, each pin driven loosened all the ones just placed. I think it had been down-graded to A3 by the time we did it, because pitons placed and left at the start and end of the flake kept it relatively expanded. Stannard had a unique approach to the expansion issue. He placed a hero loop against the rock, knot up, and (very gently) drove the pin over it so that the knot rested on the top of the pin. So rather than driving the pins straight up, he drove them at perhaps a 45 to 60 degree angle from the vertical. The wedging action of the knot on the pin and the friction of the hero loop against the rock provided body-weight placements with much less need to expand the flake.
|
|
SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
|
|
Bump for a great gentleman who's done so much
for climbing.
It's a pleasure to know you, and have you on the taco, John!!!!
|
|
Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
|
|
Fatty, now I like Johno even more.
|
|
Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
|
|
Lots of good comments about John. Thanks Roger for starting this.
John was one of my inspirations way back when, and it was a joyous
day when we finally met and climbed together in Eldorado.
In your list, Roger, of the front four, I wonder if we couldn't
include Rich Goldstone, though Rich was more known for his bouldering.
He nevertheless was a phenomenal climber from that era. I guess
more accurately he started in Chicago and wound up in the Gunks, so
maybe he came a little after. He would have to give the timeline,
but I've always attached him in my mind to that phenomenal group of
climbers... In the East, Stannard was a stonemaster long before the
word was warped from master of rock....
|
|
Guck
Trad climber
Santa Barbara, CA
|
|
John has made exceptional contributions to the climbing world on two levels. His ability to lead committing routes, and his ethics on clean climbing. The second one is often overlooked, but in my view is as important as the first one. He taught us that one can be a super climber and at the same time be willing to pick up junk left by others. He has a profound respect for nature and has instigated or taken part in countless missions to clean trails. His commitment to clean climbing -on the rock and on the trail- is the kind of ethics that deserves the utmost admiration, and hopefully will be adopted by all climbers.
PS -Sorry John that I did not know who you were at dinner. See you at Facelift?
|
|
Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 6, 2011 - 01:48pm PT
|
At the Sacherer remembrance last May, John told the story of his early climbing to several of us at dinner over a glass of wine. John had a goal of making his first, first ascent a 5.10. He accomplished that in his second year, I think (but, on the other hand, myths don’t need no fact checking), and climbed Foops in his third season. He told us that the picture of him hanging on Foops shows his long underwear: It was late in the season and cold. John persisted in working the route to meet his goal of getting Foops done in his third season. I think Henry Barber made the second ascent of Foops in 1973. John really was a leading light for free and clean climbing and had an enormous, if silent, influence on us all.
Pat, in my opening post, I am qouting something published in Rock and Ice 1994 that included the reference to John, Steve, John, and Henry as the Front Four. I have never climbed in the Gunks, so I only use direct sources.
The picture Rich posted of John standing in slings at the far end of the expanding flake on the West Face of Sentinal is a great photo. I haven't done the route, but I recall Eric Beck, who did the first one day ascent with Sacherer in 1965, looped a sling around a knob on the outside of the flake halfway across thereby greatly reducing the risk of pulling a pin.
|
|
MH2
climber
|
|
This thread recapitulates a common occurrence: finding that John has been somewhere and done something earlier than some of us laggards suspected.
I remember John and the Eastern Trade from my time in the Gunks ('67 to '73). A small example of his influence would be the note in the Eastern Trade about how much surface area of aluminum it took to withstand a 2,000 lb shear force, illustrated for those of us who are visual learners, and comforting to those of us who used the gear but endeavored never to fall on it.
|
|
Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
|
|
Yes and Stannard did some interesting tests of R.P.s... a whole
story there.
I'm not sure I've seen the photo of Stannard on the West Face. I did
that route in 1967, and yes there is a nubbin above the expanding flake,
about half way across the flake, and a sling around it makes for being
able to hang there and place a good next point (in our case a
piton, as nuts and Friends
and Aliens and such weren't there yet). The far left (north) end of
the flake is a big hook-like horn easy to lasso from about 3/4 the way
across the expanding flake. We had heard the talk about the A5
pitch, and it certainly wasn't A5 for us, but we were pretty well
practiced at aid in Eldorado and other Colorado haunts. When I did
the West Face we hauled a heavy bag, started up the night before, doing
two pitches, then bivouacked. We made it to the top with plenty of
time to have done those initial two pitches and realized we could have
done the route in a comfortable day had we not hauled that big lug
of a bag.... I was in good crack shape and didn't have trouble with
the Dog-legs. But not to digress too much. It didn't know John had
gone up on that route with Rich. Are we talking Rich Goldstone?
It would be nice to see Rich's
photo of John on Sentinel if it wouldn't be hard to post... Thanks,
Roger... Hope you are well.
|
|
Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 7, 2011 - 01:09pm PT
|
Pat, rgold posted the picture on Sept 8, 2006, the 35th post, on this thread. I can see it fine one page back.
|
|
Gene
climber
|
|
Bruce Carson made the first clean ascent, solo, in 1973. His account of doing the A5 flake with sideways tensioned nuts was classic. First nut(s) placed for a pull left and perhaps down, all the rest tensioned against it for pull right/down. Must have been exciting, with only hexcentrics and stoppers, but IIRC, by then the Nose and NWFHD had been done clean, so the idea of a long, hammerless wall was established.
According to the AAJ article on this thread (http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=445546&msg=446880#msg446880 Bruce's solo of the WF Sentinal was before the first clean climbs on RNWFHD and the Nose. Very bold stuff.
|
|
Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
|
|
Thanks Roger, I see it now. Really nice, one of the better shots
of that elegant position.
As for things being really exciting with nuts and clean climbing, actually
it was much easier once nuts, R.P.s, Friends, cams, and so forth
came into use. It was when we only had pitons that such a pitch
as the flake on Sentinel was tricky!!! The nice small clean stuff goes
up under the flake nicely, no expanding piton action at all!
|
|
scuffy b
climber
dissected alluvial deposits, late Pleistocene
|
|
I had been told of that expanding flake being climbed clean prior to
Bruce Carson's ascent.* My respondent told me it seemed much better than
the notion of nailing it, said it was nothing like A5.
To be clear, he did not claim to have done the entire climb clean.
*I mean, I was told this before Bruce's clean ascent.
|
|
The Wedge
Boulder climber
Santa Rosa & Bishop, CA
|
|
I want to hear some Seneca Rocks stories, I believe John put up the first 5.11 there at seneca and Possibly on the East coast.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2011 - 10:54pm PT
|
Anders is correct I spent the last two months working on the place in JT. Out of it I have come up with an entirely new approach to climbing protection.
None is needed.
Just drag a 100 foot long power cord behind you. You can count on it. They will snag on anything.
JO:
So far, I am finding old age is much like youth. Each day your first task is to find out how much your abilities have changed since the previous day.
Wedge:
One of my favorite climbing days at Seneca came when George Livingstone and Tom Evans decided to go try a big roof at the south end. We enjoyed the failure immensely. Each of us had just consumed an entire strawberry rhubarb pie baked in Mouth of Seneca.
I distinctly remember it was all I could do to bend over and put my RD's on.
Guck:
Am planning, as usual, on Facelift. Will be very interested to find out how that great house of yours has developed. Every time there is a fire I worry how you and Dave will fare. The last one nearly got to us even down here on the flats. This is one excitement we can do without.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Jun 30, 2011 - 01:04am PT
|
murcy: John had taken all his camping stuff on public transportation all the way from god knows where to the Valley.
His usual FaceLift routine, quite in the spirit of the event, is to take public transit. Originally bus from Santa Barbara to Bakersfield (?), then AmTrak to Merced, then YARTS bus to the Valley. Schlepping all his stuff, including (2010) his new mattock, and his plaque. Although he packs rather lightly compared with most. Year 1 (2006) he got stranded overnight in Merced. Since then, I've usually met him in Merced or Modesto, and given him a ride up from there. Works very well, and by then I need some company. It's a long solo drive from Vancouver.
|
|
KP Ariza
climber
SCC
|
|
|
Jun 30, 2011 - 02:32am PT
|
Roger, we've never met and I know this is more than a bit off the subject but, do you recognize or know of this route......
|
|
Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2011 - 09:19am PT
|
Morning KP Ariza,
I opened the thread since it is about John. So even if this is thread drift, we'll just have to figure out a way to include John.
My instant reaction is that the pitch is Smee's Come On at the base of El Cap, just under Wendy. Dave Bircheff and I climbed it in 1975 (I think) along with another route Lost Boys.
The curly, long brown hair of the leader also made me think it was of me, but I quickly realized that more than one person had long, curly brown hair. The more surprising bit, assuming that this is Smee's Come On, is that it is getting a second ascent, from someone one who is trying to impersonate me when I had brown hair. (So John, can you calculate the odds of that? Come on, it's your thread!)
Is this you climbing KP Ariza? The credit says Eric Kohl. What's the story?
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Jun 30, 2011 - 12:12pm PT
|
The climber's attire was from an era preceding the stretchy stuff. The seam on the leg always tore after converting a pair of pants into shorts. Life was so intently straightforward.
|
|
KP Ariza
climber
SCC
|
|
|
Jun 30, 2011 - 05:01pm PT
|
Roger, thank you for shedding a little light on this obscure but quality route.
Eric Kohl took this picture of me in 1984 and Iv'e always had questions about this route. It was not in any guide books so we went and spent an entire day up there cleaning it on aid. There was about a thirty foot section of the crack that was chocked with hummocks and seemed to be un-protectable. In addition, the crack in the finishing corner was filled with grass. After hours of cleaning, Eric and I both climbed it and thought it to be around 5.10+ and really good. We told Donny Reid about it and he had no prior knowledge of the route. It was even mentioned in a subsequent issue of climbing as "Where's The Reef" 5.10b.
Then, Donny Reid told us months later that you had previously free climbed it. Understandably we were a bit skeptical.
You guys were obviously honed to have climbed that thing in the state it was in without cleaning, but I still wonder how you were able to protect and free climb the middle section with out the crack exposed from the muck?
KP Ariza
|
|
Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 3, 2011 - 01:35pm PT
|
Hi AP Ariza,
Dave and I hiked over to that side of the Salathe face for the same reason that you and Eric did: That corner really stands out. This is a scan of the Meyer’s yellow guide published in 1982. As you can see the corner is clearly marked but with no route given.
In the 1987 Meyers Reid guide the same drawings are used but show the routes by the names Dave and I gave them.
BTW, we did not rate Smee’s Come On. The 5.11 seemed extreme to me when I finally saw the guide. Your 5.10b seems more reasonable.
Here is what I remember:
The corner was pretty crungy, at least out to the last bit with the finger crack. It seems like it would be a lot of work to clean the thing our given that it leaned over and is so thick.
As I remember the pitch, the first part of the corner leaned right but not too much, then about a 1/3 of the way up, the corner leans severely right and then finishes with a vertical section. The main wall was not too steep until the last part of the corner. The rock under the leaning corner was covered with friable flakes; potato chips everywhere: I skated around on them. That part of the wall under the leaning corner seemed to be protected from the elements, and stuff that would normally get washed off just sat there. I brushed a lot of micro flakes off in the lower part of the pitch.
I don’t remember the climbing as being that hard on the lower part of the pitch. As the corner leaned over, I was below it, face climbing. I think I remember a small left facing flake on the main wall, facing the main corner, about where the corner really starts leaning. I was able to get a nut behind that flake. I have a vague recollection of climbing up to the main corner to get something else in as I worked out across the slab. I didn’t have as many pieces in as shown in your photo.
When we climbed it, the last section, the crux, was very clean. I think that I stood in the same place you are pictured and scoped out the last section up to the ledge, the top of the first pitch of Wendy, under the Wendy chimney. I remember that section, both the main wall and the corner, being more vertical as compared to the lower part of the pitch. (This is not the way it looks in your photo. Maybe the vertical portion of the corner is out of sight in the photo. And I was standing on a something farther along than where you are.) From that good stance, I climbed up and got in a good nut at the base of the last, steep section, and then I down-climbed to the good stance to visually memorize the moves. I didn’t think stopping in the last section was a good idea and planned to run it out to the top.
Dave and I had climbed the other obvious right facing corner between Peter Pan and Wendy a day or so before, the one we named Lost Boys. (The 1987 guide lists the two climbs in different years, but we did them in the same year: I think it was 1975.) Dave had been up there on one of the other routes, probably Peter Pan or Wendy, both popular, and had noticed that corner. He asked me to come along to give it a try. We called the route Lost Boys, in keeping with the Peter Pan story line, and rated it 5.9. The other routes in that area are much better.
The right facing corner to the right of Wendy was obvious so we decided to return and give it a shot. When we hiked back over there, under the great slab, we passed Bachar who was walking back toward the Nose. He was alone but had ropes and gear. I asked him what he had been up on. He was both evasive and revealing: it was obvious that he had been up to look at the corner right of Wendy. It was also obvious that he knew that Dave and I had been up there the day before. This was the time with I think John was at his worst. I told him that he should go scope out his own routes. He just responded with his patented bullshit smirk.
After resting on the stance under the final corner, memorizing the moves and gathering courage before the crux, I climbed back up to the corner and found that the corner had both a sharp edge for laybacking, which I could see, and that the crack had perfect fingerlocks. I ran it out quickly and found the really good holds just before the ledge at the top. It was over in less than a minute.
There was a simultaneous cheer coming from the base on the other side of the face, over near the short routes between the Dihedral and Salathe Wall starts. I guessed that climbers on the short routes were watching me work the pitch. Once you are out to the position shown in your photo you are high up on the slab (probably well over 300 feet off the ground) and in an exposed, obvious position. With me climbing up to fix a piece at the bottom of the upper corner, backing down to the stance, talking to Dave, screwing up my courage, I signaled to our far away observers that something was about to happen. (On the other hand it might have nothing to do with me; maybe someone made it up one of the hard routes there at the same exact time.)
I was surprised when you posted your photo. I have asked twice if anyone had ever done this route. About seven years ago, I asked Bridwell if he knew if anyone had done the route: he said that he thought that the route had fallen off. It might still be there, with the same look it had when we and you and Eric did the route, and Jim just assumed that anything worth climb climbing was not there. I also asked here on ST and Melissa posted this reply in September, 2004:
Hi, Roger...
Take this with a giant grain of salt...If Bridwell said it fell off, then it probably did. However, when I was up there earlier this year, my memory tells me that we at least thought that we identified the climb and that the zone below tinkerbell/peter left, which is where I kinda remember smee's and capt. hook being, was incredibly mossy and chossy.
Given the 1982 guide, I can understand that you and Eric thought that the corner was unclimbed. I am glad that you thought that it was a good climb. I thought that the last bit was pretty good, but the lower corner was not very good. This is the sort of climb that should never be recorded so that adventurous folks can go climb the thing, expecting a first ascent and enjoy it as such. My guess is that Dave and I and you and Eric are the only climbers who have ever done the route. (Maybe we should regrade it 5.13c R. Kids would be swarming over it.)
However, your skepticism of our abilities is clearly unwarranted. We were not just honed, as you say, we were badass. As in badass, badass--just look it up in under mythic self-delusion. Ha!
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
Roger is being modest, the fact it, he climbed most of that stuff before the lichen, moss, etc, colonized the cliffs after the glacier receded, the first glacier.
|
|
KP Ariza
climber
SCC
|
|
Ha ha....nice! Great job Roger. Your description of the route sounds pretty much the way I remember it. Thank you for your account of the first ascent. That whole little area up there has some quality routes on great rock and its a shame they don't see more traffic.
I don't think that Smee's fell off and it shouldn't be difficult to see in recent photo's of El Cap's left side. It is such a prominent feature that I would think it would be visible if it were still standing. Any photo's out there??
There are still a few things over there yet to be freed. I freed the left aid line on Delectable Pinnacle with Joe Hedge in 1986 at 5.12b/c and I know Dick Cilley was coming close to freeing the right one. Don't think he ever went back.
Another stellar finger crack that never gets done is a route Dale Bard did that's in the guide as Delectable Pinnacle Center Route 5.11c. Anyways, great to hear about your route and those times. Keep up the badassness!
Ken Ariza
|
|
Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 3, 2011 - 07:45pm PT
|
Hey Ken,
How is your memory? Is the portion of the corner above you the last bit, or is the last bit out of sight?
|
|
KP Ariza
climber
SCC
|
|
Well, my memory is shot for the most part except for things that interest me the most like climbing. I could tell you exact sequences of routes I haven't climbed in over twenty years but I'm hard pressed to remember what happened in the movie my wife and I saw two weeks ago. I'm pretty sure there is a fair bit of climbing around the lip that I'm looking up at in the photo. The last thin section of the climb is really good as I remember, thin lie backing on, thin locks with positive gear.
|
|
Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
|
|
Some mention, way up thread, about the influence various
climbers have had in the area of nuts and clean protection.
Most mention Doug and Stannard and Royal and Chouinard and Frost,
starting around 1970, in a context with Doug's clean climbing
piece. Just a fine point, it all really began earlier, though, about
1966. Royal and Whillans visited me in Colorado in fall 1966,
and we climbed Ruper, and I did Supremacy Crack, etc., and Royal
at that time was really keen on making the switch to nuts, long
before the catalogue came out and others started to make it happen.
Everyone's contribution certainly was valuable, but Royal was
right there determined to get us to use nuts, in 1966. I did start
using them a bit but didn't really make the full conversion until
after I did the West Face of Sentinel and El Cap, in June 1967. I
soon realized those climbs would have been much easier with nuts
and wished I had used them. We only brought two nuts on the Nose
and did use them several times... Soon, though, I began to have
great confidence in them and realized how useful nuts were, how
much sense they made. Quite a few of us were beginning to use
them in the States a couple years before the clean climbing movement,
the Chouinard catalogue, Doug's writing, Frost's hexes, etc. etc.
really took off. Sometimes the report makes it seem as though it all
suddenly began with Doug's fine piece or with Chouinard, but the use
of nuts was well in the making in '66 (and well before that, in England).
One of Stannard's great contributions was how he tested R.P.'s and showed
how strong they could be. We were using them already, but he took a
kind of scientific approach to it all, studying things out, and applying
his mastery, to show how reasonable it was to use these on the lead and
to fall on them, if necessary...etc.
|
|
SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2012 - 09:58pm PT
|
Bump this for Mr. Stannard. One of the best to post on the taco stand.
Period.
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2012 - 10:24pm PT
|
Without question!
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2012 - 11:58pm PT
|
I'll make shameless use of Goldstone's great line.
Does this mean I have to die now?
|
|
Kim Ferguson
Boulder climber
Madera,Ca.
|
|
Mr. Stannard,
Hi there sir! My name is Kim Ferguson. I met you in the summer of 1967/8? I just wanted to thank you for the great time we spent camping . I still remember talking to you and you disappearing...only to find out you had scurried to the top to get used to the rock!
Glad to see that the Lord has been good to you. I even remember you being on the cover of Life magazine!
May the Lord continue to bless you and yours!
|
|
| Messages 1 - 71 of total 71 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!