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billygoat
climber
3hrs to El Cap Meadow, 1.25hrs Pinns, 42min Castle
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 14, 2006 - 09:49am PT
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Okay, I'm back. Again and again.
I don't know how many of you saw my post from last night. I can't find it right now, so it looks like it got nuked. I didn't even think it was all that bad, but I have been accused of having no taste many many times. So...
Let's see if they nuke this. (Chris, I would encourage you otherwise.)
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Apr 14, 2006 - 11:56am PT
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What was in it?
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billygoat
climber
3hrs to El Cap Meadow, 1.25hrs Pinns, 42min Castle
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2006 - 12:09pm PT
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I said conversations about someone's girlfriend were really lame, and we should get back to the issues at hand. Namely, the potential betrayal of certain website owners against members of the climbing community.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Apr 14, 2006 - 12:14pm PT
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Your namely sentence makes no sense.
I think I am going to have to buy something from this evil Chris Mac dude, I love supporting nefarious plots any time I can.
But, hey you profit gouging rich kid, you reading this??? I want it autographed.
And I hate you.
that pic of the Alaska climbing on the front page makes me want to go there, and I HATE to be cold.
Damn you all to hell.
Gouge me baby.
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billygoat
climber
3hrs to El Cap Meadow, 1.25hrs Pinns, 42min Castle
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2006 - 12:19pm PT
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Sorry, I'm just trying not to get nuked. What I mean is, let's get back to my earlier question:
"Has Chris Mac betrayed the climbing community?"
A few days ago Minerals wrote:
“Shall we talk about the fact that Erik Sloan and Chris McNamara secretly used ASCA funds to purchase power drills and then illegally used the power drills for replacing and adding bolts on Yosemite’s big walls (without the consent of the FAists and the rest of the climbing community)? …And the fact that all of this was secretly done behind Greg Barnes’ back (the director of the ASCA)? How would the people who have donated money to the ASCA feel about their money being put towards illegal power drilling in Yosemite’s wilderness, huh???
So, maybe all of you conspiracy theorists now have something REAL to discuss.
edit:
Oh, I forgot to mention that Chris was on the board of directors for the Access Fund during this same time period. Somehow, I don’t think that the Access Fund and illegal power drilling make a very good mix.”
And I wanted to know more. Chris needs to SAY something. If he doesn't, he is fully aware of what I will do come noon saturday (sorry to sound cryptic, but I'm trying not to get nuked).
Now, start your stop watches. Lets see how long it takes for this thread to disappear?
9:19 AM pacific coast time...go...
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coldclimb
climber
Wasilla, Alaska
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Apr 14, 2006 - 12:32pm PT
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My my, there's conspiracies on EVERY climbing website, it's NOT just limited to rockclimbing.com.
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akclimber
Trad climber
Eagle River, AK
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Apr 14, 2006 - 12:35pm PT
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" Namely, the potential betrayal of certain website owners against members of the climbing community"
Billygoat, if you are to have any credibility, you need to learn how to write. The above sentence should read: "Namely, the alleged betrayal of the climbing community by certain website owners."
"Potential" implies that it has not happened, but might in the future. "of certain website owners" means that the website owner is the one being betrayed. "Against members of the climbing community" makes no sense whatsoever when used in its current context.
Until proof can be shown regarding Minerals' allegations, I suggest people shut up.
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billygoat
climber
3hrs to El Cap Meadow, 1.25hrs Pinns, 42min Castle
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2006 - 12:50pm PT
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Yes, I know it was a poorly written sentence. But I do know how to write. Can't get them right every time. Anyways, thanks for the edit. What I was trying to get at is this: now that a certain person has betrayed us, we have the option of betraying him. Get a phucking brain next time, and figure that out for yourself. It was the "against" that made it a bad sentence.
As for Minerals shutting up. I can tell you with certainty that he does know what he's talking about, and he's not the only one who knows what has happened. There are many lurkers on this very website that know. They choose to be silent because they are foolishly terrified about what the NPS might do. What they don't fully realize is that the NPS also (indirectly) makes money off of climbing. Tourists are fascinated by it. The NPS knows this...
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akclimber
Trad climber
Eagle River, AK
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Apr 14, 2006 - 12:57pm PT
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I know what you meant to say, I was just trying to help you not sound like a 'tard when you said it.
Where did this supposed power drilling take place? Not in the Valley anywhere, that's for sure. There is no way those drills would not echo for miles around if used in the Valley. If the witnesses(did they actually witness it?) are not going to rat them off to the NPS, they need to shut up. All this gossip and snipping is just childish. If he violated the Wilderness Act, produce the evidence and bring him down. That would be the RIGHT thing to do. Don't sit there with your pussytail between your legs worrying about what the NPS might do to climbing. Didn't you basically say that in your last post, how important climbing was to the NPS? Then why are people not bringing Chris down on this?
I call it the PTPP syndrome, when someone has jealous detractors, they are slandered at every opportunity but nobody ever produces real evidence.
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billygoat
climber
3hrs to El Cap Meadow, 1.25hrs Pinns, 42min Castle
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2006 - 01:03pm PT
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Have you ever used a motorized drill with an insulating (padded) cover? They're actually very quiet. From high up on the wall, with the wind blowing the way it does, nobody would hear.
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akclimber
Trad climber
Eagle River, AK
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Apr 14, 2006 - 01:04pm PT
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Okay , you have a point. Your honor, I wish to recess for a few to evaluate this statement.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 14, 2006 - 01:05pm PT
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Nobody?
Hahaha well definately I wouldn't hear. The F.R.O.G. made those covers as I remember.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Apr 14, 2006 - 01:07pm PT
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why not just ask greg barnes to chime in? he is always very straight forward when he posts here about ASCA activities, and he seems like he takes all the ethical aspects of their work extremely seriously (as it should be).
edit- either way, the slanderous aspects, the saying w/out saying, when viewed in the context of the other anti-mac slander that regularly pops up around here, is somewhat of a turn off. say what you mean, don't try to be cute, or you sound like a punk in high school.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 14, 2006 - 01:13pm PT
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A couple remarks:
1. This thread title could easily be a political thread. If you want to have a serious discussion, be accurate in titling your thread so that the folks who are concerned about the issue can chime in.
2. You're naming names in a public forum about activities against the rules. I think that your name is in order. This discussion could be had in the abstract, at least in the beginning.
3. Do YOU follow all the rules, on the road? with the booze? with the camping? with guiding? with whatever?
4. Do you REALLY care that bolts might have been power drilled? IF the exact same number and depth of bolts had been drilled by hand would you REALLY be happier? Or are you just using a technicality to dig at ethics and actions you disagree with.
5. If you really think you can anticipate the NPS reaction to some accusations or scandal, you're quite wrong. Bolting has been severely banned or restricted in MANY areas. The NPS could easily say "No Hammering on the rock for any reason" and it would not affect the VAST majoriity of Yosemite climbs and climbers. Some hard aid climbers might get bummed, but then they are the ones raising the red flag and hammering away on one hand, and narcing off the re-bolters to the Feds on the other.
6. Some folks in these accusations have talked of retrobolting, adding bolting, and other "crimes" Get specific. In the vast majority of cases, I think the ASCA has been ethical about not adding bolts.
7. The ASCA has also contacted the first ascent party in many case regarding questions about how to approach maintaining a route. In my opinion, they do not need anybody's permission to replace aging 1/4 inch anchor bolts with 3/8 inch bolts on trade routes.
8. Just a personal note. It's true that bolting need to be under control somehow but the bolt fears over replacing 1/4 inchers with fattys or rivets with beefier rivets is totally overblown. If somebody's climbing needs to be validated by their courage in clipping fixed gear, then they should think twice. In the history of climbing in Yosemite very very few people have been hurt or killed by rivets or bolts pulling.
Peace
karl
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billygoat
climber
3hrs to El Cap Meadow, 1.25hrs Pinns, 42min Castle
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2006 - 01:17pm PT
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Matt--
I'm not sure you know the history of this topic. Greg Barnes was asked to comment, and did, on the earlier thread which caused my deactivation and has been nuked.
Werner,
Yeah, you wouldn't hear! But neither would a lot of folks on the Valley floor. I'm sure anybody who's spent time on walls would agree with me that noise travels in weird ways up there. If they were quick and covert about it, it wouldn't be all that hard to get away with. And many folks have. Was the Shaft the last time folks were cited?
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ADK
Trad climber
Reno, Nevada
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Apr 14, 2006 - 01:18pm PT
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Chris Mac has done a lot for the climbing community...maybe you should drop it billygoat.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 14, 2006 - 01:24pm PT
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Don't sit there with your pussytail between your legs worrying about what the NPS might do to climbing.
Pussytail...
LOL!
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 14, 2006 - 01:25pm PT
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Good diatribe Karl, although ....
We used to have broken legs/ankles on regular route on Half Dome regularly due to ageing bolts pulling and breaking.
One party once broke a bolt on that bolt ladder up there and the 4 or 5 parties below them all got stopped and had to bail. I was there and saw them all come down. Non of them had a bolt kit that day.
I suggested they do a human ladder to get to the next bolt (three guys stand on each others shoulders).
They didn't think about it while they were up there.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 14, 2006 - 01:30pm PT
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I guess my point is Werner, that the quality of bolts on the regular route of Half Dome shouldn't be a defining element of the challenge and adventure of doing that route.
If somebody needs old or small bolts to respect the NWDH regular, maybe they should try free climbing more of it.
Peace
Karl
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billygoat
climber
3hrs to El Cap Meadow, 1.25hrs Pinns, 42min Castle
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2006 - 01:34pm PT
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Karl,
Here we go:
1. I've already created two threads with more accurate titles. They were both nuked. So sorry, I had to go with this one.
2. I didn't start the name game. I'm just interested in it.
3. I follow Gandhi's advice: "an unjust law MUST be broken".
4. The later point. But I do care about irresponsible use of power drills. That's unacceptable, and that's a major part of the issue at hand.
5. I disagree. In Yosemite, climbing is a part of the parks image. They know that. Also, banning bolting won't stop bolting. See my answer to number three, and read the bill of rights. Namely, the first and second amendments. You have rights that exceed the power of law makers.
6. It's not about the ASCA, it's about certain members abusing their privilege.
7. But did CMac? Bridwell has disagreed. Who else?
8. I'm not sure which side of the fence you're standing on. Let me make this clear: replacing a rivet ladder with fatty bolts is unacceptable unless authorized by the FAists. That's my opinion. What's yours?
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