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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 5, 2010 - 05:47pm PT
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I'm not saying that this solution is perfect by any means, but this is a very complex issue to look at from many perspectives.
An empty statement. We could make an analysis of everything involved and end up back on 580 somewhere, or in downtown Los Angeles.
The question is: does a real problem exist, and what is the best way to solve it while encouraging people to experience wonder and adventure in their park.
The ecological health of the park would be improved not one iota by this permit idea. And breaking federal law--prompting a lawsuit by environmentalists--is not a "moderate" approach symmetrical with upholding federal law (keeping atvs out).
Assume a third cable is not possible. That leaves fixing the existing set-up, shutting down the cables on bad storm days, and dozens of other solutions offered here.
-Plus we are really only talking about a few days a week during the heaviest seasons of use. It's the precedent, the precedent, the precedent of regulating what is in fact a technical climb. And extending the permitting tentacles in general towards no good purpose.
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Colby
Social climber
Ogdenville
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Wow... good post Brendan.
But I think some of those assertions like too many people feeding animals don't necessarily follow.
What I mean is this... the trails have changed and will continue to change. How about those horse trails like the ones at mirror lake? The horses piss on, shat all over, and otherwise erode the hell out those trails. If you are a hiker or a runner, you have to step aside and let the cavalcade walk by (at a snails pace) while kicking up dust. I don't see the Park Service doing much to stop that. Probably because the horse trails bring in revenue. So it must be okay.
As far as and feeding animals... A lot of tourons feed animals, but that's much more of an issue at the Taqueria or anywhere else in Curry Village or the Lodge area. That issue seems to pale in comparison up there. Animals snaking people's food is always going to happen to some extent in the wilderness. What's the solution? Make a contrived limit on how much this can happen? I don't know. But I do know that arbitrary boundaries have never appealed to me.
Trash? Yeah, that's certainly an issue.
Safety? Could work out the other way. Read John Moosey's comment.
"A permit system does not solve this. In fact, it makes it more likely to happen as people decide to hike it in iffy weather because that is the day they have a permit.
An extra cable does more to solve this problem."
I should look at the pictures, but I'm guessing the park has already changed considerably since the Organic Act (1916) was passed. Besides I though one of the goals of the park system, at least wilderness type parks, is to let people connect with nature. I guess only certain people get to do this.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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-Plus we are really only talking about a few days a week during the heaviest seasons of use.
For now, until the other days are impacted and we have to have permits for them.
This permit system is blocking 1400 people every weekend from going. Do you really believe that a lot of them wont go on Friday and Monday?
Once a permit system is in place, it will be simple to expand it.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Reducing the number of people on the trail will most likely "improve" the ecological health of the trail.
Yep, but it will also negatively impact the health of other trails as people look for different places to hike. Which will mean you will have to put in a permit system for other trails.
Yosemite falls trail will be next.
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 5, 2010 - 06:15pm PT
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correct, former stzzo, if you want to get formal.
And, I would argue, a very solid null hypothesis paired with the alternative: the proposed permit system will improve the ecological health of the park. Rejecting the null is extremely unlikely in this case, imo.
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Srbphoto
Trad climber
Kennewick wa
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In 5 years...El Cap
At least the permits will be free, only $5.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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The Park will suffer the minimum amount of grief by adding another lane.
All other actions will get them very bad press.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
شقوق واس
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It's a circus, as it it is.
Bring on the elephants!
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jstan
climber
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Of late we have been hiking Mt Whitney. Don't know why but a guy where PT works does it every year. I guess because it is the highest. The place is a zoo, The last time there were abandoned bags of poo along the trail. When we got down the dempster for collecting them was locked. I expect that situation has since improved.
We did it as a day hike. Start any time between midnight and 2AM. It goes much faster and easier in the dark. I'll never do that hike again in daylight.
Much nicer to go in through Horseshoe Meadows and New Army Pass. No crowds at Guitar Lake.
No way to tell why people go where they go.
Almost any place can become a zoo.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Once a permit/fee system is in place, it has a tendency to expand. Fee stations on your classic climbs won't be far behind....
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
Maui or Vail ; just following the sun.......
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Remove the cables & let it be a climbers mountain again.
rg
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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From an earlier thread:
Great writing in the classic old highblown Victoria style.
From Summer Saunterings, by Frank Harrison Gassaway, San Francisco, 1882, p. 122:
As a standpoint for the landscape viewer, the polished summit of [Half Dome] is incomparably the finest in the whole range, towering as it does five thousand feet above the Valley floor and commanding its entire scope, from east to west. The drawback to its general enjoyment is the undeniably hazardous nature of the present means of ascent, which from the top of the horse-trail to the apex of the eminence is by means of a mean rope nine hundred feet long. This cordage lies upon the vertiginous ramparts of the bald granite monolith. The marvel of the matter is how this lead was first placed on that air-line trail by the spider-footed George Gordius Anderson, a guide of the greatest strength and most iron nerve.
A man ascending this dizzy slant presents about the relative appearance of a fly walking up the side of an inverted goblet. Very few visitors care to attempt it, unless under the supervision of this guide, Anderson (whose wonderful coolness was acquired as a ship’s carpenter on a frigate that frequently plied Cape Horn). The cord itself is hardly calculated to inspire confidence, being composed of seven thicknesses of ordinary, hay-bale-rope. This, however, is knotted every few inches to assist the hands, besides which the climber can rest at certain intervals and anoint the soles of his feet with sailor’s rye, a flask of which Anderson carries in his vest pocket for this and other purposes.
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Belay Vobiscum
Trad climber
Seattle
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Late June 1993 we headed out to do the NW Face. When we got to the top of the falls there was a ranger there who asked to see our backcountry permit. We told him we didn't need one, we were climbing the NW Face of HD and would be bivying on the route. He refused to call down to double check our insistence that a permit wasn't required to climb HD and told us in no uncertain terms that we needed one and would not allow us to pass (he was armed--we were not) and sent us down to get a permit. We stashed gear and wasted the afternoon going down and getting a permit. Of course at the ranger station they then refused to issue us a permit since it wasn't required. Fortunately the head ranger there was a woman so common sense eventually prevailed. She called the idiot seasonal ranger and straightened him out, apologized to us, and issued us (at our insistence) a permit--just in case. I still have my commemorative HD permit.
So here's the deal, if the masses need permits to do the cables, we'll need permits to do HD too--you can bet on it.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Late June 1993 we headed out to do the NW Face. When we got to the top of the falls there was a ranger there who asked to see our backcountry permit. We told him we didn't need one, we were climbing the NW Face of HD and would be bivying on the route. He refused to call down to double check our insistence that a permit wasn't required to climb HD and told us in no uncertain terms that we needed one and would not allow us to pass (he was armed--we were not) and sent us down to get a permit. We stashed gear and wasted the afternoon going down and getting a permit. Of course at the ranger station they then refused to issue us a permit since it wasn't required. Fortunately the head ranger there was a woman so common sense eventually prevailed. She called the idiot seasonal ranger and straightened him out, apologized to us, and issued us (at our insistence) a permit--just in case. I still have my commemorative HD permit.
So here's the deal, if the masses need permits to do the cables, we'll need permits to do HD too--you can bet on it.
----
I promist not to mention it again, but the above story basically tells us about the slippery slope we are plunging down with the permit business.
It is incomprehensible and unheard of for a government agancy to issue ANY kind of permit, and not to have an enforcement policy in place - or for one to eventually come into existence regardless of what is now being said to the contrary.
I've seen it 1,000 times. Maybe there is no current plan to write up people with no permits who are caught on the public trail to the Dome, but someday, some official is going to imagine the possible cash stream, is going to feel the park service is getting done out of money by "law breakers," and a ranger with a gun and a hip full of citations will soon start appearing on the shoulder of Half Dome for "security" and ecological reasons.
Really too bad it's come to this but perhaps there's no other way to "manage" the crowds.
JL
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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This permit system is blocking 1400 people every weekend from going. Do you really believe that a lot of them wont go on Friday and Monday?
That seems to me to be a great argument in support of the permit system - like altering people's commute schedules instead of building more freeway lanes.
Largo and Belay - I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. A seasonal ranger made a mistake 17 years ago that was then corrected, and that infers what?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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"Largo and Belay - I'm not sure I follow your reasoning."
"Reasoning" only makes sense, as a term, if you have some desired goal in mind. My desired goal is freedom. That means any visitor to the Park is not restricted by what oficials have decided what we can and cannot do in our public parks. This also includes the freedom of not being shaken down for money when we are not following the "rules."
I recognize that this was a sustainable policy when I was climbing in Yoz in the 70s and early 80s. Crowds have forced the Park Servises hand, in some cases, because apparently, Yoz cannot sustain such large numbers. I highly doubt the crowds hiking to the Dome are "ruining" the place (it's mostly just a granite massif), or are creating anywhere near the visible or long term impact of pack animals on other parts of the Valley, so my sense of this is we're talking about a control issue. The idea that the permit system will somehow limit the few deaths that are bound to happen is to not understand the nature of climbing accidents.
All told, I'm neither arguing for or against anything, but I am lamenting the lack of freedom to park visitors this new permit system implies, and the inevitable policing it will involve, sure as day follows night. I've always bucked against anything official, but understand the need in certain cases - but it doesn't make me like it.
JL
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Be forewarned, what will eventually happen if you indeed, fail to obtain a permit?
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Fair enough. Not that different than how I feel. We never like to be regulated, maybe I'm just more resigned to it.
More people, more rules. The slippery slope we're on might be more the people one than the rules one.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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We need the ranking
Chairman for the Subcommittee on National Parks, Forests and Public Lands
Rep. Raul M. Grijalva AZ.
to call the Supe in Yosemite and issue instructions to add another lane on the Half Dome cables to stop the flood of emails and phone calls from outraged citizens that are annoying his staffers.
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SilasCL
Sport climber
San Francisco, CA
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I've seen it 1,000 times. Maybe there is no current plan to write up people with no permits who are caught on the public trail to the Dome...
-Largo
Anyone can still walk up to the subdome, or shoulder, or whatever you want to call it. This permit is for the cables only.
No wilderness permit is ever needed for any kind of day hike in Yosemite. That some idiot seasonal ranger thought so 17 years ago is irrelevant.
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