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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:03pm PT
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Cintune, Sorry so long in answering your 10-19 post at 2:54 pm.
No way can you compare a human being with a light bulb filament. Dude,,,,,yo know betta. Do filaments love, create other humans, have
a yearning for discovery of life and adventure, feel driven to produce life philosophies to order and govern their lives by ????? Uh, Nada :DD
Peace Bro, lynnie
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dfrost7
Social climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:12pm PT
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It's about having a relationship, a personal relationship with God, who sought us before we ever thought of seeking Him.
For those of us who have decided to receive this amazing gift, we were not believers. The reason you don't believe, is that you don't believe yet.
It's not to us to prove Him. He has promised to prove Himself ... " ... for as many as received Him ..."
We all struggled and wrestled with Him, same as you.
I don't believe it gives comfort, not even for a minute, to not believe.
You and I believe most everything every day. If we didn't have faith created in us all, I would find it hard to close my eyes. You have to believe every night you'll wake up, but then, we don't know.
I am so thankful He loves us. No, this is not a God who is looking to just
squash humanity. He loves us. But, you meet Him on His terms. After all, He is God. Not us. That's the first step.
Science has never disproved the existence of God.
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:20pm PT
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everyday, yes !
How can we expect to navigate through the complexities of life without
seeking advice from the ONE who created it all.
Doug
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:21pm PT
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what is beautiful to us is probably not what is beautiful to say, Crovus corax
so there is an element of our experience which really depends on how we think, how we experience our lives... science has a lot to say about how we think... but what exactly those thoughts would be? probably somewhat beyond what would be interesting to science anyway...
Now I still disagree with Werner, I am not sure that we would agree on what is "real" because for me that is limited to what is physical. But my thoughts are real, and I can have thoughts about unphysical things, and while I don't think that that allows those thoughts to be realized in my reality, I know how powerful those thoughts can be.
I do not know Werner well enough to actually know what is in his mind, but I have a model of human consciousness, we all do, that makes me think I know something about how everyone of you is thinking and experiencing life. It is probably a good approximation to reality. I can act on that thought, that model of your existence and it can guide my behavior. Treating you like I want you to treat me, well that doesn't need much beyond this common empathy we share. Perhaps there is fear involved, but there can also be joy in that too. But that empathy is based on a model... imperfect and not quite "real."
No doubt that all living things probably have some sort of rudimentary awareness of life... certainly not as we humans experience it. It's easier when the life closely resembles us, to understand, to empathize with it.
In the end, we're doing the thinking, the rationalizing, the interpretation of our experiences. It is a trivial thing, but none of this happens without us. Physical existence happens without us, but the philosophizing is all us.
To first order, the existence of things beyond the physical is a concept, just as the physical is a concept. I can do objective things to verify my concept of the physical. I can only do subjective things to affirm my beliefs in things beyond the physical.
How we have these thoughts can be addressed by science.
What those thoughts are may not be. I don't see any contradiction there.
I, for one, do not feel the need of anything else but what is physical. I don't think that diminishes my experience of the wonder of existence in the least. I actually think it heightens it.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:21pm PT
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Warbler,
Your post 10/19 at 7:15 pm.
Question 1: Do animals have a soul ?.....I don't know.
Question 2: Do all animals ?....I don't know.
Question 3: Single Cell Animals ?....I don't know.
Where do you draw the line ???
Kevin, where I draw the line is at generalizations like the questions above. I do not KNOW that man is the only created being with a soul and a God.
I do know that when you leave all the generalizations behind and get into Your Own Life that the questions and answers become very telling.
The ocean of generalizations is a convenient way to avoid looking deeply into your own soul, being and heart.
Do I have a soul ? If I do, what do I do with it? Where do I go with this thing in my life that may be going somewhere after death? Can I get in touch with this soul thing ? Where did soul music come from.....Soul...I know it's real and we each have one in us. I've seen them depart. Gone. Body there soul gone.
What are yo answers to these questions? Wish we had a campfire in the middle of nowhere with the stars out and crisp air, to stimulate thought and friendship and answers. Peace all, Lynne
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:22pm PT
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Boy this has strayed from discussing evolution.
But let's be frank here: those who deny that life has evolved, in spite of mountians of fossil, molecular, and other evidence, are either ignorant about science or in serious denial to the point of intellectual dishonesty or delusion.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:27pm PT
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dirtbag, evolution involves more than physical bodies evolving. Evolution encompasses the thought processes of the human which leads to evolving life philosophies and beliefs...we evolve in many aspects and areas of our lives. Peace, Lynne
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:31pm PT
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Ok Lynne, but that is beside the point as to whether has evolved over 4.5 billion years (actually, a bit less than that) of the Earth's history.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:32pm PT
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...I don't know.
That's a start.
But "looking deeply into your own soul, being and heart" can just be a way to avoid looking deeply and honestly with the intellect.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:38pm PT
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Dirtbag, we have evolved. So now what?
How will you live your very own life every day? What will yo do tomorrow to make it your best life ever ? How will dirtbag evolve as a human ? Will you be only for dirtbag ? Will you dedicate yourself to others ? What will the evolution of your life philosophy involve on a DAY BY DAY basis ?
Evolution....Brain and God revolution....make it happen cause it only happens one time here. Give it your one and only best.
Tomorrow, for yo, maybe no.....jess sayin'. I've seen the no. I may be no,,,,,, tomorrow, lynne
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:43pm PT
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"Dirtbag, we have evolved. So now what?
How will you live your very own life every day? What will yo do tomorrow to make it your best life ever ? How will dirtbag evolve as a human ? Will you be only for dirtbag ? Will you dedicate yourself to others ? What will the evolution of your life philosophy involve on a DAY BY DAY basis ?
Evolution....Brain and God revolution....make it happen cause it only happens one time here. Give it your one and only best.
Tomorrow, for yo, maybe no.....jess sayin'. I've seen the no. I may be no,,,,,, tomorrow, lynne "
Good questions, BUT irrelevant to the question of whether life, physically, has evolved through the ages.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:47pm PT
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I dunno, Ed, are metaphors and abstract thought physical realites?
Though, I think you and I would agree that they are, products of physical reality.
You other guys, science doesn't prove or disprove god. Science isn't concerned with that. Electricians and plumbers may work side by side, but no amount of electron's will suffuse a teabag.
My own dog in this fight, is practioners of religion overstepping their turf and presuming to supplant science and education with religious dogma. It's irrelevant, dig? That's like stating that the square root of 144 is high c.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:47pm PT
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Lynne:
No use talking about a "soul' until it has been given a definition that allows a "soul" to be distinquished deterministically from all other things that are not "souls." Nowhere have I seen such a definition.
Ed:
I agree that thought is can be considered real because, given the technology, we can go in and measure synaptic chemistry and neuronal activity patterns sufficiently to distinquish one 'thought' from all other 'thoughts." In the meantime it is surely an area of study.
Earlier I offered a functional definition of consciousness as the preparation an organism makes for the present moment to be followed by another moment. Survival mechanisms are so general, this kind of consciousness exists in all organisms, since nearly all employ survival strategies.
I think we however have hidden meaning when you and I talk about consciousness. We do not sense all that we mean and so cannot properly pose the question. A proposal.
Imagine that you have never learned a spoken language. What would you mean when you say "consciousness" in that case? You can not hear a voice telling you there is another moment coming.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:49pm PT
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If I'm crazy, that doesn't mean that God is! Everything about me is better because of my faith in God and Jesus! But I know that is from Him!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:51pm PT
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Nice 'avatar'!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:53pm PT
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Dirtbag,
"Good questions" ...yeah ! "Irrelevant" ,,,,,Nada !!! Dude, yo surely cannot think that a body can evolve without the brain also evolving along with it. Yeah :DD lynnie
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:53pm PT
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I don't know either but Jesus said . . .
Matthew 10:29-31
[29] Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
[30] But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
[31] Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
I read the above that God cares about all animals and he is there even at their death, even when we don't care and bother to think about it. Yet we are more valuable than all of them. This says a lot about how God really cares and loves us.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:55pm PT
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Sure Lynne, the brain evolved with it. But your questions seem more personal/introspective and not really related to evolution.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:56pm PT
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Yikes, jstan is back from his bike ride.....hehehe, lrl
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:58pm PT
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Dirtbag, Yes !!!! My questions are aimed at relevant day to day living which then produces a history of mankind overtime. Stop ! with the obscure generalizations. Life is lived by a human one day at a time, one step at a time with peace, patience and perseverance. :DD
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