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Jorroh
climber
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Jan 11, 2016 - 10:02am PT
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"If this most fundamental principle of conservative economics is wrong"
I don't think thats really in doubt.
Really the biggest and most damaging failing isn't in concentration of wealth and to a lesser degree income,it's been the horrendously bad allocation of capital throughout the entire modern neo-liberal era.
Its been bad for numerous reasons, almost all of which point back to a core neo-liberal philosophy.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jan 11, 2016 - 02:39pm PT
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The premise here is that everyone has equal opportunity to make those choices. Not many people make a calculated choice between sex work and high finance. I'm not sure if you intended it but perpetuating this kind of idea that "well poor people made a free choice in a free society" is just another form of poor shaming.
And the perpetrators of the notion that government is the great equalizer that can somehow make the calculated choice for them is just another form of stealing from those that do and giving it to those that won't.
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raw
Mountain climber
Malibu
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Jan 11, 2016 - 07:40pm PT
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Gotta love timely #9 under History!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Jan 11, 2016 - 07:44pm PT
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Don't fool yourselves boys...We are all 1 hospital stay away from being bankrupted...It's called the trickle up theory and we're all unwilling participants...
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7SacredPools
Trad climber
Ontario, Canada
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Jan 11, 2016 - 08:37pm PT
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Bought travel medical insurance today. I can go anywhere, except the US. If I vacation there the premium costs 50% more. By far the most expensive health care in the world according to my broker.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 11, 2016 - 10:33pm PT
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I have to agree with the "false choice" that is presented. It would be like saying that someone who made a choice not to take advanced calculus and differential equations sat down and made a career choice and choice as to income potential.
We have to remember that half of America is below average intelligence, has below average income, has below average parents, below average health.
The fact is that NOTHING except gov't is in the position to change what happens to people who have the deck stacked against them.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jan 12, 2016 - 04:46am PT
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We have to remember that half of America is below average intelligence, has below average income, has below average parents, below average health.
The fact is that NOTHING except gov't is in the position to change what happens to people who have the deck stacked against them.
People are succeeding everyday with all of the "disabilities" you mention because they have above average will, drive and desire.
The government is in the single most absolute worst position to help these people and I no longer care to give them my money to screw it up.
I'll make you a deal, if you stop forcing .gov to steal from me, I'll let you spend as much of your own money as you like trying to help the people you mention in your post.
Are we good?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 12, 2016 - 05:20am PT
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Escopeta- I'll make you a deal: stop perpetuating myths about poverty and pretending that you are being victimized by having to pay taxes and I'll listen to what your core ideas are.
I work with lots of people who work extremely hard and have to hold down second jobs (in addition to their full time jobs) to make ends meet. It's definitely not because they lack "drive." I don't make more money than they do because I work harder, it's because I have advantages (some innate, some environmental) that they do not and have had opportunities that they have not.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jan 12, 2016 - 06:02am PT
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For starters, let's be clear. I really don't care if you listen to my core ideas or not. So right off the bat, that's not much of a deal for me.
Secondly, if you are of the opinion that government is in the best position to help "these people" as you call them (of which I am one apparently) by taking money and giving it to them or legislating a stacked deck then clearly you are in need of a dictionary as you have lost grasp of the word 'myth'.
The single best solution is to give people the freedom to make their own choices to earn, donate, live and choose how they see fit and every piece of legislation chips away at the one thing that allows "these people" to be successful.
Also give me one reason why I shouldn't be able to comment on how my tax money is being spent?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 12, 2016 - 06:22am PT
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Escopeta posted For starters, let's be clear. I really don't care if you listen to my core ideas or not. So right off the bat, that's not much of a deal for me.
You clearly care, that's ok. It's ok to care. It's not weakness.
Secondly, if you are of the opinion that government is in the best position to help "these people" as you call them (of which I am one apparently) by taking money and giving it to them or legislating a stacked deck then clearly you are in need of a dictionary as you have lost grasp of the word 'myth'.
I didn't call anyone "these people?" Not sure what you're referring to. Our government has done huge amounts to alleviate the suffering of the American people. A robust questioning of the role of government is important and necessary but when you start buying the "government is the problem" propaganda you've lost touch with reality. Our government has lots of problems, lots of inefficiencies, lots of misplaced priorities. They're all worth discussing. "Government can do nothing to help people" is political propaganda and nothing more. I assume you're intelligent enough to understand the difference.
The single best solution is to give people the freedom to make their own choices to earn, donate, live and choose how they see fit and every piece of legislation chips away at the one thing that allows "these people" to be successful.
Relatively unfettered capitalism created the Gilded Age of the late 19th and early 20th century. The American middle class was engineered by American government policy after the excesses of the previous age ended in economic disaster. We all support the basic ideas of "freedom of choice" but without certain protections capitalism eventually results in the "freedom to choose" but in reality that is a platitude, not a policy. When politicians say "freedom to choose" what they mean is the freedom for the powerful to enact the policies of their choosing like paying people in company currency, not paying overtime or dictating how employees spend their compensation.
Also give me one reason why I shouldn't be able to comment on how my tax money is being spent?
Again, you're projecting something that was never said. There is a difference between "commenting" and "pretending to be victimized." When you claim the government is "stealing" because you have to pay taxes in a representative democracy you are in fact playing the victim and not engaged in informed citizenry.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jan 12, 2016 - 06:41am PT
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Stealing is when something is taken from you that you would like to keep. You don't get to make up your own definitions. Language is important.
The government IS the problem. That's not propaganda. That's an informed opinion from someone that has lived in this country long enough to see it. This isn't beta for a route I haven't climbed. I've sent it.
And when a politician says they are giving you the "freedom to choose" by legislating it, it actually means exactly the opposite. I trust you're intelligent enough to tell the difference.
And no, I truly don't care whether or not you listen to my ideas. I have no desire to change your mind via some random interweb forum. My responses are for my own benefit and anyone else that likes to read. So forgive me, your opinion's only value is that it creates a nice counter point.
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HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
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Jan 12, 2016 - 06:49am PT
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+1 Escopita
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Gary
Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
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Jan 12, 2016 - 06:50am PT
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Move to Somalia, you'll be government free.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 12, 2016 - 06:57am PT
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It's a great place to start a business, too.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jan 12, 2016 - 07:03am PT
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Move to Somalia, you'll be government free.
Since we are on the subject of intelligence....
People that suffer from the lack thereof and create the assumption that government is somehow a binary condition is exactly how we got in this mess.
The inevitability of someone implying that anarchy is the only outcome of less government than we have today is about as immutable as Godwin's law.
Freedom is a scary, messy and unpredictable thing and I don't begrudge people for not having the character to manage it. I only ask that you allow those that do the opportunity to flourish under it.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 12, 2016 - 07:10am PT
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Escopeta posted Stealing is when something is taken from you that you would like to keep. You don't get to make up your own definitions. Language is important.
Haha oh man. Either you're trolling or you're serious and I'm going to have a hard time not trolling you. In the spirit of keeping this thread civil I will just move on. "Taxes are theft" is a juvenile notion.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 12, 2016 - 07:13am PT
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The Governor of Kentucky is making Obamacare permanent while pretending to dismantle it. He is getting rid of the exchange (which is completely unnecessary because Healthcare.gov works really well) while continuing the Medicaid Expansion. If that's what Republican governors need to do to fool conservatives into doing the right thing, I'm cool with it.
GOVERNOR BEVIN INITIATES PLANS FOR TRANSFORMATIVE MEDICAID PROGRAM
FRANKFORT, Ky. (Dec. 30, 2015) – Today, Governor Matt Bevin and Health and Family Services Secretary Vickie Yates Glisson announced plans to develop a transformative Medicaid program for Kentucky. Governor Bevin has requested Mark D. Birdwhistell, a former Secretary of the Cabinet for Health and Family Services, to assemble a team of experts to assist in the drafting of a Medicaid waiver solution for the Commonwealth that addresses the financial unsustainability of the current Medicaid program.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 12, 2016 - 07:23am PT
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Jan 12, 2016 - 07:03am PT
Move to Somalia, you'll be government free.
Since we are on the subject of intelligence....
People that suffer from the lack thereof and create the assumption that government is somehow a binary condition is exactly how we got in this mess.
I thought you didn't care what we think?
Anyway, you're the one doing the extreme government bashing. You went there first.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jan 12, 2016 - 07:27am PT
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So any criticism of the government and the amount of control they exercise, or the amount of freedom they extract is extreme government bashing? Good grief.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jan 12, 2016 - 07:31am PT
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"Taxes are theft" is a juvenile notion.
Implying that our current taxation system is anything more than 10% collective infrastructure support and 90% wealth re-distribution is a much more dangerous notion.
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