Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
squishy
Mountain climber
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2012 - 01:06pm PT
|
The fact that we were planning on leaving these bolts in anyways, meant it was too silly not to use them on the ascent.
This is a most troubling statement.
Were it not for this I would entirely come down on the side of "raising the bar".
This statement has the whiff of contradiction.
I caught that as well...they talk about not talking about chopping then they mention their plan to chop, specific details of it after stating there was no plan, it doesn't make any sense and points to backpedaling, the opposite of what others here have interpreted by their statements, this puts them in the same boat as the original bolter, a phishy story where their words are inconsistent and untrustworthy...did I not read it correctly or is reading comprehension a fine art which is lost on those who have already made up their minds? This story is far from over and it's sad that the only two who know the truth are already poking holes in their own credibility, we may never know the truth of how they came to the decision or why because of the now sensitive nature of the subject matter, hell it could have been two hot heads in a bar drinking the night before coming up with stupid ideas, it could have been pure hubris, but I for one will not praise or condemn anyone till I know the full story...but I suspect they don't want us to know or they will receive criticism, that's the only conclusion I could guess from the small clue planted in their statement. They vaguely touch on the subject, mention speaking about it, then they mention not having talked about it, then they mention the specifics in their plan to chop.
I personally think the route should have stayed, I would have liked to climb it someday, I don't give a sh#t about the future of ethics, though I do have control over my own, I just want fun adventures in the mountains, I am not putting up new routes, I not the cutting edge of climbing and the CR fascinated me, it's history, it's accessibility. The choppers did a disservice to people like me, I don't climb to get my name in the papers or to put my name on a route and I despise those who climb for those reasons, hardmen are just little dick wavers with social problems, if you climbed for real you wouldn't care about who did what and when you would be too busy climbing and having fun to give a sh#t, I can imagine there are some great routes climbed in this world that we never heard of done by the silent adventurers for themselves, those are real climbers, not these publicity stunts...what these two proved to me is that they have huge egos, and they are people I wouldn't want as friends and they are people I wouldn't want dictating what routes are available and which aren't...they have a narrow minded and inconsiderate view of the world and of themselves and I'll be willing to wager than someday they may regret this on a personal level...
If I win the lottery or come by a pile of cash, I'll head down there and recreate the route, it sounds like a lot of fun and I have always wanted to climb it...I hope the locals restore it for future generations to climb, if you don't want to climb it and you want to take the "new variation" then by all means, go for it, but why deny others the right to climb the mountain or a route they wish to climb? Does it bother you that less skilled climbers are able to reach the summit? If so, go eat a f*#king cock. It reminds me of the ego driven sandbagging of American routes just to keep the noobs away or test people. It seems no one likes easy routes, it's all about pushing the limits of everything, showing off how big you dick is and then getting your name and picture in the magazine. What ever happened to just getting outside and enjoying it? Climbing something long and easy, the feeling of body on stone, is that not enough for you people? You have to one-up each other, climb a new route, climb a new style, what's the f*#king point? you are all dust in the end and no one will f*#king care especially the mountain. All you did was make a mountain harder, denying access to people like me all the while cheering some bullshit battlecry about ethics that I don't even recognize as a legitimate subject...
I really want to hear more from them, and it would be nice if they explained the line I quoted above. If a political figure made such an inconstant statement he would be blasted to no ends on here, why are those in support of the "ethics" applied in this case, blind to it?
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2012 - 01:06pm PT
|
They'll never learn ....
|
|
mike m
Trad climber
black hills
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2012 - 01:14pm PT
|
I read Kruks statement yesterday and at least he is taking credit for what he did. Cause in the words of that Oklahoma State Coach...I'm a Man!
|
|
Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2012 - 01:22pm PT
|
Squishy wrote: All you did was make a mountain harder, denying access to people like me all the while cheering some bullshit battlecry about ethics that I don't even recognize as a legitimate subject...
Someone on Mountain Project forum wrote:
"
I wanted to stand on it, feel it, experience it and now I can't forever... If I am lucky, I may get 3-4 opportunities in my lifetime to attempt Cerro Torre. I have always planned on attempting it by the Ragni or Spiral route but I still wanted to be able to experience Maestri's creation if only even on the way down. So -not that any of you care - but thanks for killing that dream."
The simple greed of toddlers. Throwing fits because they can't have candy.
|
|
BlackSpider
Ice climber
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2012 - 01:25pm PT
|
Good analogy Snorky.
It seems that most of the ones who are most upset about this from a "this route was stolen from us!" standpoint are ones who don't care about doing some good climbing, but just want to conquer Cerro Torre so they can write it down on a tick list (with some exceptions such as Steve Schneider and others).
|
|
Dervish
Trad climber
Over the water
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2012 - 01:31pm PT
|
If something is wrong, then it's wrong. Why should history make it any less wrong?
I just wish they had chopped about another 200.
I really can't understand what all the fuss is about.
Dervish
|
|
squishy
Mountain climber
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2012 - 01:38pm PT
|
I don't feel it was stolen from me, in fact I was given the gift of a harder challenge. I do feel that someone else should not have the made the choice for me especially for ego driven reasons or some subjective ethics debate...big difference...
I can see the meaning of my post was lost on those who are ignoring the inconstancy I pointed out by applying the same lack of reading comprehension and spin on my own words...
This whole thread is just spin and bias, the "Armchair mountaineers" actually have an advantage on this subject because we are outside looking in instead of being formerly invested in one side or the other of the charged ethics debate. Not to mention I don't have an ego right now, I am but a shallow shell of a man who can't even lead 5.9. BUT I LOVE CLIMBING! a lot more than debating this bullsh#t, see ya in the hills, I'm heading out right now...
|
|
Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2012 - 01:46pm PT
|
What Dingus said. Ain't none of you fatass wannabe chumps who can't even get your corpulent carcasses up the Nutcracker going to be queing up for the Torre anytime soon, bolts or no bolts.
God forbid these entitled jackasses ever had to work hard, develop skills and take some risks to earn something.
|
|
BlackSpider
Ice climber
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2012 - 01:47pm PT
|
Rolo bringing the goods:
http://www.climbmagazine.com/news/2012/01/rolando-garibotti-interview
"The meeting in 2007 was as unilateral as Hayden and Jason's action. It was rather pretentious from those 40 people, most of which were non-climbers to attempt to decide for the hundreds and hundreds of people that have made and continue to make the history of this massif. Salvaterra was not present, neither were Karo, Giarolli, Orlandi, Comesaña, Fonrouge, Dickinson, etc, etc. Alpinism has been ruled fairly successfully without any sort of elections, votes and regulations. Lets keep it that way. Maestri's act of vandalism had long required a response. I agree with Jason and Hayden that ‘the act needed to be initiated by one party, without consensus.’"
"Some of the townspeople, largely non-climbers, believe they should be the ones deciding what happens up on the hills. They seem to forget that a self-regulating international community of ‘locals’ has been visiting these mountains year in year out since the 1930s. To me their reaction is not unlike the reaction of an ignorant football fan. When the Argentine National team plays I am often that person, shouting at the couch and players even if I know next to nothing about what they are attempting to do on the pitch, or the real difficulties they are facing. The difference is that I don’t expect anyone to take my football opinions seriously."
|
|
phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
|
I've been checking in with this thread daily, as the story is riveting (no pun intended).
I have no opinion about the actions and reactions that have taken place on Cerro Torre because I am not an alpinist and I have never been there.
But I am dismayed at all the vicious personal nastiness that is being put forward in this thread by people on both sides of the debate.
I've lived in the US my whole life and have visited a number of places in the world and in general, my observation is, the world is full of beautiful, magical places, and the people who inhabit them are, in the majority, friendly and good-hearted. I am proud of my Italian roots (all four grandparents) and it saddens me to see the argument on both sides reduced to aspersions about people from Canada, the US, Italy, Argentina, etc.
Thanks to the many contributors who have remained civil.
|
|
philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2012 - 02:00pm PT
|
Rolo speaks sense.
TFPU
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2012 - 02:14pm PT
|
Twas ego that called Maestri out on it.
i dont have a dog in this fight, but i disagree with this statement from DMT.
when donini et al went up to teh col of conquest and found no trace above a certain point that raised questions. when rolo et al ascended the original maistri line and found no trace that also raised questions. calling people out may not be about ego. in fact the most vociferous of them, rolo, had no stake in increasing his ego as he asserts that another italian team should get the credit for the FA of CT. while ego drives all of us to a certain extent, i do not think that ego drove rolo on this one.
|
|
squishy
Mountain climber
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2012 - 02:32pm PT
|
I can see the meaning of my post was lost on those who are ignoring the inconstancy I pointed out by applying the same lack of reading comprehension and spin on my own words...
Wait... what?
DMT
I am referring to the article and statements released by the choppers. There is inconsistency in their story, enough to raise question on whether or not they are telling the whole story. Just like Maestri's words, history is repeating itself in my eyes...and it appears no one is acknowledging or even speaking about these inconsistencies, everyone just wants to argue ethics or talk about how much of a better or worse climber they are...I bet they are not telling the whole story of their ego drive deed because they hope to be justified by the community, the same community that voted to keep the bolts and the same community they never asked about chopping them.
Go read their statements again and tell me there is no inconsistency in their story...unless they have already updated the article and did some more backpedaling...and why didn't they show up for the meeting about it afterwards? Lama did, many others did, why not the ones who did the deed? are they afraid of being confronted? are they afraid of finding reason in the arguments against their actions? I remember being their age, my balls were bigger than my brain as well, then I grew the f*#k up...
|
|
BlackSpider
Ice climber
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2012 - 02:38pm PT
|
Go read their statements again and tell me there is no inconsistency in their story...unless they have already updated the article and did some more backpedaling...
I'm not sure this explanation will satisfy you at all (since you've probably already made up your mind), but here's one explanation for the passage you were talking about:
-they did not initially intend to chop any bolts, as they have stated
-when they reached the bolted anchors, they knew they were going to use them for the rappel anyway, since they weren't planning on chopping the bolts
-since they were going to use them for the rappel, it would be silly to refuse to use them on the ascent
-these were the only places where their line both intersected the Compressor Route and where they were planning to build anchors.
-they decided to chop on the summit as stated, and refused to chop bolts on the way down they had used on the way up
and why didn't they show up for the meeting about it afterwards? Lama did, many others did, why not the ones who did the deed? are they afraid of being confronted? are they afraid of finding reason in the arguments against their actions? I remember being their age, my balls were bigger than my brain as well, then I grew the f*#k up...
Hmm, because they went out climbing? Imagine that, preferring to go climbing while you are in Patagonia rather than argue about climbing with other people...
|
|
BlackSpider
Ice climber
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
|
"I also feel ego should not dictate whether or not you can make decisions for me or not"
This sentence is complete nonsense. No one has made any decision for you or not.
|
|
Kimbo
Trad climber
seattle
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2012 - 02:47pm PT
|
rolo seems the most vocal and outspoken supporter of K&K's actions: if he felt so strongly, why the heck did he not remove the bolts himself? i mean, isn't he down there like, always?
also i can't help but wonder how much rolo's beliefs influenced K&K's actions....
|
|
squishy
Mountain climber
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2012 - 02:47pm PT
|
there you go, some possible explanations that make sense...
so a question....if I climb a new aid variation on a route in Yosemite, say of a controversial route like WOEML and then chop it on the way down, how would you feel?
Would I be praised?
|
|
Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2012 - 02:47pm PT
|
Not all of us can live in a van for four years
And I didn't have rich parents and access to a Jr racing leagues...but I don't spent my time crying about how I can't drive at Talledega either. I didn't have a dad in MLB and access to the best coaching from age 3, but I don't feel entitled to play for the Dodgers either.
For a "fend for yourself" bootstrapping conservative who's constantly crying about "entitlements", the irony is rich indeed.
|
|
enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2012 - 02:54pm PT
|
Lets keep it that way. Maestri's act of vandalism had long required a response. I agree with Jason and Hayden that ‘the act needed to be initiated by one party, without consensus. That's right Rolo ...
Beside the Nose I was looking for new missions for our two heroes to restore some atrocious acts of vandalism!
To break new walls of Berlin!
1964: The Prow, 2 bolt ladders, 38 bolts
1972: Tangerine Trip, 550 m, 2 bolt ladders, more than 50 bolts.
1976: Lurking Fear, 2 bolt ladders
But I know that other sins have been done around the world ... please ... ¨
Climbers of the pure ethic!
Missionaries of the true vertical church!
Help me to find out where they are ... and possibly to convince the authors of these acts of insanity to confess themselves to our priest Rolando Garibotti!
Amen
|
|
philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
|
Philo, is amazing he must have a live feed to the internet 24 7, and logic blinders on.
I'm out if JT in a few days, goof ball, let's rumble, Nomad parking lot.
Coz I spend a lot of time on the blogosphere because I am still recovering from an ACDF of C3-C7. I get out and do what I can, work or play, till fatigue sets in. PT is what a lot of my time entails.
But, did you just call me out to rumble and choose me to a bout of fisticuffs?
What sound does beating a dead horse make?
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!