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monolith
climber
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Yep, the more extensive testing can happen later. One will have to be satisfied with 99 percent till then.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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I will agree. We do not know everything. We are being lied to in many, many ways. The truth of it all is very obscurred. But one thing that is more often true than not is follow the money . . .
Here is another angle:
OBL was the go to CIA terrorist bogeyman. Pakistan and Afghanistan are much more involved secretly in this "War on Terrorism" and not in a good way. But they play along for money and profits. Could Pakistan really know more about this raid and staged assassination than they let on? I think so.
Once you have the bogeyman terrorist and we can make it up as we go, then we can use it as a card to get into any country ("you are either with us or against us" -- Bush 2) we want to for their rich natural resources.
And now what are we really doing in Libya? Is it really all humanitarian? I don't think so.
The Real Reason for NATO Attacking Gaddafi's Libya EXPOSED!!!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x581763
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zn__tMbhQHU
Some believe it is about protecting civilians, others say it is about oil, but some are convinced intervention in Libya is all about Gaddafi's plan to introduce the gold dinar, a single African currency made from gold, a true sharing of the wealth.
"It's one of these things that you have to plan almost in secret, because as soon as you say you're going to change over from the dollar to something else, you're going to be targeted," says Ministry of Peace founder Dr James Thring. "There were two conferences on this, in 1986 and 2000, organized by Gaddafi. Everybody was interested, most countries in Africa were keen."
The endless "War on Terror" and "Terrorism" is about MIC record profits, and a great excuse at anytime to invade a sovereign country under the guise of fighting terrorism to go after that countries rich natural resources.
That is the name of the game.
Turns out:
Endless War, the MIC makes record profits.
Afghanistan is loaded with rich natural mineral wealth and we need the gas pipeline route.
Iraq is rich in oil, more than the Saudi Arabian peninsula perhaps.
Libya has some oil and a treasure of gold, and we don't want them to use a or set-up a gold standard for the purchasing of oil.
It's not really about terrorism at all. Terrorism is just the "grease" to get it all started.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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This thread hit the crapper...
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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I have a great deal of respect for Naom and I'm willing to listen . . .
Noam Chomsky: Reaction to bin Laden’s Death
Saturday, 07 May 2011 16:40
http://mwcnews.net/focus/analysis/10557-noam-chomsky.html
It’s increasingly clear that the operation was a planned assassination, multiply violating elementary norms of international law. There appears to have been no attempt to apprehend the unarmed victim, as presumably could have been done by 80 commandos facing virtually no opposition—except, they claim, from his wife, who lunged towards them. In societies that profess some respect for law, suspects are apprehended and brought to fair trial. I stress “suspects.”
In April 2002, the head of the FBI, Robert Mueller, informed the press that after the most intensive investigation in history, the FBI could say no more than that it “believed” that the plot was hatched in Afghanistan, though implemented in the UAE and Germany. What they only believed in April 2002, they obviously didn’t know 8 months earlier, when Washington dismissed tentative offers by the Taliban (how serious, we do not know, because they were instantly dismissed) to extradite bin Laden if they were presented with evidence—which, as we soon learned, Washington didn’t have. Thus Obama was simply lying when he said, in his White House statement, that “we quickly learned that the 9/11 attacks were carried out by al Qaeda.”
Nothing serious has been provided since. There is much talk of bin Laden’s “confession,” but that is rather like my confession that I won the Boston Marathon. He boasted of what he regarded as a great achievement.
There is also much media discussion of Washington’s anger that Pakistan didn’t turn over bin Laden, though surely elements of the military and security forces were aware of his presence in Abbottabad. Less is said about Pakistani anger that the U.S. invaded their territory to carry out a political assassination. Anti-American fervor is already very high in Pakistan, and these events are likely to exacerbate it. The decision to dump the body at sea is already, predictably, provoking both anger and skepticism in much of the Muslim world.
We might ask ourselves how we would be reacting if Iraqi commandos landed at George W. Bush’s compound, assassinated him, and dumped his body in the Atlantic. Uncontroversially, his crimes vastly exceed bin Laden’s, and he is not a “suspect” but uncontroversially the “decider” who gave the orders to commit the “supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole” (quoting the Nuremberg Tribunal) for which Nazi criminals were hanged: the hundreds of thousands of deaths, millions of refugees, destruction of much of the country, the bitter sectarian conflict that has now spread to the rest of the region.
There’s more to say about [Cuban airline bomber Orlando] Bosch, who just died peacefully in Florida, including reference to the “Bush doctrine” that societies that harbor terrorists are as guilty as the terrorists themselves and should be treated accordingly. No one seemed to notice that Bush was calling for invasion and destruction of the U.S. and murder of its criminal president.
Same with the name, Operation Geronimo. The imperial mentality is so profound, throughout western society, that no one can perceive that they are glorifying bin Laden by identifying him with courageous resistance against genocidal invaders. It’s like naming our murder weapons after victims of our crimes: Apache, Tomahawk… It’s as if the Luftwaffe were to call its fighter planes “Jew” and “Gypsy.”
There is much more to say, but even the most obvious and elementary facts should provide us with a good deal to think about.
Noam Chomsky is Institute Professor emeritus in the MIT Department of Linguistics and Philosophy. He is the author of numerous best-selling political works. His latest books are a new edition of Power and Terror, The Essential Chomsky (edited by Anthony Arnove), a collection of his writings on politics and on language from the 1950s to the present, Gaza in Crisis, with Ilan Pappé, and Hopes and Prospects, also available as an audiobook.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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(although not impossible) that an aircraft carrier would have a laboratory outfitted for this kind of work… it is not the Starship Enterprise out there no it has more than enterprise......
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Guck
Trad climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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a friend who lurks here wanted me to post amidst all this blissful ignorance.
hey, i have my issues with alex jones, but i think this is a fairly "credible" (as far as it goes) to-do:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/top-us-government-insider-bin-laden-died-in-2001-911-a-false-flag.html
bin laden is an open secret, just as most of the facts of 9/11 are. nothing to be done about--those in power are too powerful to challenge. sit back, go climbing, and understand that, while god may well be in his heaven, all's not right with the world.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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The words "Congressional Approval" implies all or most members of both houses of
Congress were fully and truthfully briefed by the Bush Administration prior to the vote.
This was not the case, as only a very few select top ranking members were sold the paranoid fear story, complete with truth stretching, and they then "briefed" the rest of congress.
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Urmas
Social climber
Sierra Eastside
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Coz, you are a reasonable and intelligent person. I think your assessment of Chomsky would be different if you were to read his books. Regarding Osama's many crimes, there is no doubt that, as Chomsky says, they pale in comparison to Bush's. Don't forget that Osama became who he was with US funding in the battle against the Soviets in Afghanistan.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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If 9-11 was investigated openly and within the International community in a World Court and not by US agencies that are possibly involved in 9-11, Noam would beleive 9-11 truth just as the rest of the World would. But we just can't look at it and ask questions, certainly not in a court of law, if the US government has anything to do with it.
The evidence that has been discovered by brave souls indicates an inside job. The evidence is overwhelming.
Just 3 small points. Answer me this:
How did Naval Intelligence Officer (NIO), Lt. Delmart Edward "Mike" Vreeland (who is our spy) know about the 9-11 false-flag and named many of the targets prior to 9-11 and gave that information to Canadian authorites? And now, in Canadian Court records.
A White Knight Talking Backwards
SPY CASE IN CANADIAN COURTS SUGGESTS US NAVAL OFFICER HAD FOREKNOWLEDGE OF 9-11
by Michael C. Ruppert, Author of Crossing The Rubicon
http://www.copvcia.com/free/ww3/01_25_02_revised_012802_vreeland.html
http://www.copvcia.com/free/ww3/01_28_02_vreeland.jpg
How did OBL know to pull-off the "Big Day," "The Big Party," (assuming he was involved, which he wasn't) on the same day when just by shear chance our DoD and Armed Forces were involved in many War Games on a grand scale and some of which were doing that very scenerio, slamming jets into buildings. How did he do that? Man, what are the odds? Boy, he has some incredible intel to do so.
Then how did OBL mastermind and get our DoD and Armed Forces to stand-down on 9-11? We even have Dick Cheney on record telling a US Air Force personnel that the orders haven't changed have you heard anything different? (don't shoot down the aircraft approaching the Pentagon at high speed). Geeee, Dick was even getting a little testy. Can you say stand-down? Sure you can.
OBL is brilliant. He must have done it all with a TV remote in his hand.
His war and terrorist strategies should be studied in War Colleges the World over. He was absloutely brilliant and then on a shoe-string budget even.
Yea, OBL was able to do all of that. (Sarcasm)
And you guys call me the nut-job?
Why do you all continue to believe in fairy tales that our US gov insists the world to continue to believe in?
One of the best false-flag articles I have seen in a while:
False Flags: An American Tradition
Saturday, 07 May 2011 08:03
http://mwcnews.net/focus/politics/10546-false-flags.html
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Coz wrote: Just to be clear, congressional approval means the entire congress participated in a war crime. I do not believe Bush is a war criminal, throwing Bush under the bus, seems a bit political and cowardly.
Don't worry...Cheney and Rumsfeld belong under the bus with him.
WMD's=Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld=lies.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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coz, chomsky's reputation (and appointment at mit) in linguistics continues despite rather than because of his wingnut commentaries on a wide array of other topics unrelated to his academic work. you'll notice that once he retired from linguistics, he didn't get an appointment in political science at harvard.
"intelligence" just isn't a general category. folks can be really smart at one thing and insanely stupid in another. see it all the time. pretty common here at old ivy-covered st.
"intelligence" is more like athletics or some other skill. folks who excel at powerlifting seldom do well at ultra-running. someone who is good at horseshoes is likely to suck at fencing.
can't believe this thread is still going.
of course, i just bumped it.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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"I think that without a doubt, torture and enhanced interrogation techniques slowed down the hunt for bin Laden," said an Air Force interrogator who goes by the pseudonym Matthew Alexander and located Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of al Qaeda in Iraq, in 2006.
It now appears likely that several detainees had information about a key al Qaeda courier -- information that might have led authorities directly to bin Laden years ago. But subjected to physical and psychological brutality, "they gave us the bare minimum amount of information they could get away with to get the pain to stop, or to mislead us," Alexander told The Huffington Post.
"We know that they didn’t give us everything, because they didn’t provide the real name, or the location, or somebody else who would know that information," he said.
In a 2006 study by the National Defense Intelligence College, trained interrogators found that traditional, rapport-based interviewing approaches are extremely effective with even the most hardened detainees, whereas coercion consistently builds resistance and resentment.
"Had we handled some of these sources from the beginning, I would like to think that there’s a good chance that we would have gotten this information or other information," said Steven Kleinman, a longtime military intelligence officer who has extensively researched, practiced and taught interrogation techniques.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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In a 2006 study by the National Defense Intelligence College, trained interrogators found that traditional, rapport-based interviewing approaches are extremely effective with even the most hardened detainees, whereas coercion consistently builds resistance and resentment.
"Had we handled some of these sources from the beginning, I would like to think that there’s a good chance that we would have gotten this information or other information," said Steven Kleinman, a longtime military intelligence officer who has extensively researched, practiced and taught interrogation techniques.
Hindsight is 20/20.
And don't you think we probably tried the "rapport-based" crap first, and only resorted to 'enhanced' techniques after that failed???
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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You know I went looking for Bush's new book in the bookstore, found it . . .
No doubt about it that the Neo-cons are War criminals. All of them.
Obama better think straight or he is heading in the same direction. Executive privilege is a joke. It is an attempt to get around the law. If you do the crime you need to pay the time.
Presidents are not above the law.
And no one gets away with it. If justice isn't served in this life, it will be on Judgement Day. All lies will be exposed for all to see.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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all this talk of war crimes... maybe someone ought to take a look at what constitutes a war crime...
even Wikipedia has a pretty good discussion...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime
War Crimes are those serious violations of the rules of customary and treaty law concerning international humanitarian law that have become accepted as criminal offences for which there is individual responsibility. Colloquial definitions of war crime include violations of established protections of the laws of war, but also include failures to adhere to norms of procedure and rules of battle, such as attacking those displaying a peaceful flag of truce, or using that same flag as a ruse of war to mount an attack...War crimes include such acts as mistreatment of prisoners of war or civilians. War crimes are sometimes part of instances of mass murder and genocide though these crimes are more broadly covered under international humanitarian law described as crimes against humanity.
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Under the Nuremberg Principles, war crimes are different from crimes against peace which is planning, preparing, initiating, or waging a war of aggression, or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements, or assurances. Because the definition of a state of "war" may be debated, the term "war crime" itself has seen different usage under different systems of international and military law. It has some degree of application outside of what some may consider to be a state of "war," but in areas where conflicts persist enough to constitute social instability.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Waterboarding is torture and torture is a War Crime no matter what way you try to warp it, denie it, excuse it, or discuss it. WAR CRIME. WE signed on and said we would never do that. OOOOoooooopppppsssssssiiiiiieeeeee. We lied.
People are waking up more and more. It is hard to do. It hurts to know the truth. But you will be better for it when you push through the horror of it and the grief.
Too many people want to just hide from it and call everyone who thinks or knows about 9-11 Truth "Conspiracy Nuts" or worse. It is a knee-jerk reaction that takes no thought was so ever.
Sorry, you can't say that anymore. Too many Military, Intelligence Officers, Government Officials, and many more people in a position to know do indeed know that 9-11-01 was a massive false-flag inside job and are saying so. Why? The evidence says so. The means, motive, opportunity, and the physical empirical evidence says so, if you honestly take a look at all of it without ignoring any of it. You have to take a good honest long hard look. If you are not willing to do that, then you will not know.
So there fore, OBL couldn't have done this, nor could he have done this by himself. Just like Lee Harvey Oswald, OBL was the go to "fall guy" and "insta terrorist." He was their canned patsy. In false-flags you always have to have a patsy to take the blame and distract from the real culprits and the real criminals.
You can't call these people nuts, whack-jobs, conspiracy theorists or any other stupid ad hominem names . . .
http://patriotsquestion911.com/
In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shrink from this responsibility. I welcome it.
— John F. Kennedy, Inaugural Address Jan. 20, 1961
Here is a new addition to the growing list . . .
http://patriotsquestion911.com/#MScheuer
Michael Scheuer, PhD – Former Chief of the CIA's bin Laden unit (aka Alec Station), the Osama bin Laden tracking unit at the Counterterrorism Center 1996 - 1999. Special Adviser to the Chief of the bin Laden unit, September 2001 to November 2004. 22-year CIA career. Currently author, political analyst and media commentator. Adjunct Professor of Security Studies, Georgetown University. Former Senior Fellow at the Jamestown Foundation, writing regularly for its online publication Global Terrorism Analysis. Author of Through Our Enemies' Eyes: Osama bin Laden, Radical Islam, and the Future of America (2002, originally published anonymously), Imperial Hubris: Why the West is Losing the War on Terror (2004, originally published anonymously), Marching Toward Hell: America and Islam After Iraq (2008)
Interviewed by Judge Andrew Napolitano on Fox News 10/9/10:
Michael Scheuer: What the Colonel (Anthony Shaffer, former Chief of the Army’s Controlled HUMINT (Human Intelligence) Program) is absolutely correct on is that the 9/11 Commission and the Commissioners themselves were just there to whitewash it. They were blessed with the most brilliant staff you could imagine. But as Commissioners they were clearly there to not let the American people know what happened before 9/11.
Judge Napolitano: Was the 9/11 Commission report a whitewash as Colonel Shaffer says and as one of the 9/11 Commissioners to whom he spoke, and you heard him talk about this person, pretty much agrees?
Michael Scheuer: It was a whitewash and a lie from top to bottom, Judge
Judge Napolitano: What do you mean "a lie from top to bottom", Michael?
Michael Scheuer: Well in my own case, sir, the Agency officers who were involved before 9/11 in chasing bin Laden decided that we could not simply testify under oath without providing supporting documentation. And so all of us, both testified under oath. I did, I think three times and provided documents. I provided myself, let me speak just for myself here, Judge, I provided a three inch binder with over 400 pages of documentation -- not my notes, but official government documents about the failures before 9/11. I never heard one word back from Zelikow. And I approached Zelikow. He asked me for the notebook. I told him it was available. He asked me for it and he never got in touch to talk about one page of material.
Judge Napolitano: You obviously know what was in the loose leaf and I know you read the 9/11 Commission report. Did anything from the loose leaf make its way into the final report?
Michael Scheuer: ... Not the important stuff. The important stuff did not. ...
At 11:25 of the video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9DQ4EpgYzY
Bio: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Scheuer
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Bleuy....
You just don't get it.
I get it. You don't! You just postulate crap and throw out stupid comments without giving a meaningful personal opinion of your own.
You sit on the fence and spew crap like a coward. Piss off!
EDIT:
No doubt about it that the Neo-cons are War criminals. All of them.
Obama better think straight or he is heading in the same direction. Executive privilege is a joke. It is an attempt to get around the law. If you do the crime you need to pay the time.
Neocons?
Your 'Progressive' boy may be just as culpable by your standards, if not more!
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