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John M
climber
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Sep 25, 2018 - 08:51am PT
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for my part I have lost a lot of my sense of humor because the republicans have gotten so nasty. Before Obama was elected they said that they would stop everything that he does no matter what he did. They hung him in effigy. The number of lies coming from them has gone over the top, so it doesn't surprise me that liberals have lost their sense of humor or that now the main liberal voices have become shrill. The right has been shrill and has lost its sense of honor for some time now. I am in no way condoning how some on the left are behaving. I am just pointing out that it shouldn't surprise anyone what is happening now. It is a response to the rights nastiness. You reap what you sow. I don't see an end to this anytime soon.
For years the right painted the left as weak because they played too nice with the bullies overseas. Meantime the bullies got power here. Now that the Dems have gotten mean, the republicans should have no right to complain. If you dish it, you shouldn't be complaining when it is dished back.
Edit: the politics in Arizona is a good example right now of the rights lies. There are a number of adds by one person on the right that blatantly take words out of context of the person on the left. Its so incredibility obvious and easy to challenge, but the right has a lot of money and these ads run over and over and are believed by the people on the right. Its disgusting.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Sep 25, 2018 - 08:56am PT
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All of which brings us to the issue of Trump's performance to date. The initial conundrum was: could he shift from being the slashing, caustic ex-reality show star of the campaign to a more measured, presidential persona? Perhaps to the dismay of his diehard critics, Trump did indeed make that transition...
Now that's a knee slapper!
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Sep 25, 2018 - 09:04am PT
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On Kavanaugh, the only two known things so far are:
1. All corroborating witnesses picked by the accusers have testified under oath to not knowing anything of the allegations by the two women.
2. Neither of the two women accusers have testified under penalty of perjury yet.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Sep 25, 2018 - 09:14am PT
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"If Kavanaugh fails to be confirmed, he'll be portrayed an innocent victim of the Dems ruthlessness. Should swing a few races."
Precisely my point. The way McConnell figures it, he wins if Kavanaugh is confirmed, and if not, it enrages the GOP base to drive them to the polls, and help preserve the Senate for the GOP. And the bonus of the latter scenario: another, more conservative justice is named after that which makes the GOP base happy- the sum of the whole process will only bolster the GOP base for 2020, too.
Amy Coney Barrett would be a logical second choice- she's more conservative than Kavanaugh, and the Dems would have a helluva time not supporting a woman on the SCOTUS (or finding accusations of sexual harassment).
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John M
climber
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Sep 25, 2018 - 09:15am PT
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1. All corroborating witnesses picked by the accusers have testified under oath to not knowing anything of the allegations by the two women.
nope..the main one sent an email. His version of things has been refuted by a former girlfriend. the history of the goings on at that prep school are starting to come out. The fact that the republicans don't seem to be willing to allow an FBI investigation are telling. They have the power. They could choose who investigates, but they aren't even willing to do that. Congress is pathetic at investigating things. They should put it into the hands of professionals and see what comes out. I'm betting that more women would be willing to testify if they had a fair hearing.
By the way.. when is the budget going to be balanced and the deficit paid down? A year and a half the right has controlled everything and yet the deficit continues to rise and the budget is nowhere near balanced. Obama had to deal with a major recession and still the right complained that he didn't fix things fast enough. Trump was given a growing economy, so what is his excuse?
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Sep 25, 2018 - 09:26am PT
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Whatever anyone says on Kavanaugh, it means little to me unless they assert it under penalty of perjury.
On the deficit, just wait until interest rates rise...and think how much non-discretionary spending takes up of the budget.
Neither political party has the balls to balance the budget... we'll inflate our way out of it as usual.
Edit: Tutsky...was my statement on corroborating witnesses wrong? I may be wrong about that, but you don't show where.
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John M
climber
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Sep 25, 2018 - 09:37am PT
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protests are your problem? good grief. No wonder no one trusts or understands you. Good grief dude. Get a grip.
Benghazi
Birthers
Muslim
hung in effigy
and with Hillary the list of attacks against her is immense.
protests? good grief.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Sep 25, 2018 - 10:22am PT
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I bow to your superior emotions
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Sep 25, 2018 - 10:36am PT
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The reported facts are no one has stepped forward to say they saw what happened.
Have any eyewitnesses confirmed either woman's story?
If so, please provide a story/link.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Sep 25, 2018 - 10:43am PT
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Have any eyewitnesses stepped up saying he did not do any of this?
It’s funny how that works.
It will come down to he said ,she said?
Who will have the burden to prove?
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John M
climber
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Sep 25, 2018 - 10:46am PT
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Few sexual abuses are done in front of witnesses. The few witnesses available are all claiming drunken forgetfulness. How convenient.
But the stories of abuse are coming out. Mark Judge's former girlfriend has said that he confessed to her about some abuses after he said that no abuses ever occurred.
Its telling to me that the republicans don't want to have an FBI investigation.
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Capt.
climber
some eastside hovel
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Sep 25, 2018 - 10:53am PT
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At Trump's UN address earlier today he claimed that his administration had done more than almost any admin previously. The entire UN erupted in laughter. Full facts.
Yeah, he's making us look pretty awesome on the world stage.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Sep 25, 2018 - 10:56am PT
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Sep 25, 2018 - 10:43am PT
Have any eyewitnesses stepped up saying he did not do any of this?
Two of the supposed witnesses to the Ford incident have refuted her story.
The burden of proof lies with the accuser. It's impossible to disprove these claims, especially considering the lack of details. You know... like when... where... who else was present.
Few sexual abuses are done in front of witnesses.
True, but irrelevant to these accusations.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Sep 25, 2018 - 11:02am PT
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Personally, I'm yet to be convinced about the true facts around what happened with Kavanaugh & Ford or Ramirez. There's a lot of circumstantial evidence (at best) that is extremely dated, but I also understand why women hesitate to come forward when these kinds of incidences occur. Regardless, in order for true justice to be served, actual, usable evidence needs to be present, and there seems to be a great shortage of that.
Maybe that will change this week- these charges are serious enough that they need to be considered when the subject at hand is a SCOTUS justice. I don't think the Senate is being 'weenie' about it...they are doing their due diligence, to a lesser degree because of their morality, and to a greater degree because they know damn well voting women are closely watching this.
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John M
climber
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Sep 25, 2018 - 11:14am PT
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Regardless, in order for true justice to be served, actual, usable evidence needs to be present, and there seems to be a great shortage of that.
I disagree with this. Her testimony goes to character. He is not facing a jail sentence, so the rules for evidence are different. I have read her version of what happened and why she didn't come forward at the time. I believe her at this point. That could change once she testifies before congress as I have no idea what she will say then.
I do not believe Mark Judges version that nothing happened and no abuses ever occurred at that school.
this speaks to Kavanaugh's character. It would be different if he had admitted to treating women disrespectfully in high school and recognized the need to change, but instead he and his friend have said that abuses did NOT occur. I find that very hard to believe considering that more women are coming out with accounts about what went on in that school, including what Mark Judge's former girlfriend has said about what he said.
I don't need the kind of proof that is acceptable to convict someone and put them in jail. No on is going to put kavanaugh in jail.
I also believed Anita Hill that she was abused by Clarence Thomas. At some point we need to change the atmosphere that hides this stuff.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Sep 25, 2018 - 11:44am PT
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"He is not facing a jail sentence, so the rules for evidence are different."
To my eye, it would seem logical that the evidentiary rules should at least be the same. Kavanaugh may not go to jail for this, but his entire career could be destroyed as a result of what's going on in the confirmation process.
Far be it from me to want to see an ultra-conservative like Kavanuagh loaded into the SCOTUS for the rest of his life, especially given the way McConnell & Republicans shirked their constitutional Senate responsibility with Garland, and then changed Senate procedural rules so they could ramrod Gorsuch onto the Court.
However, I don't think it's in the best interest of our legal system...or our society in general...to have critical decisions made without adequate, documented facts to back them up.
Of course, we pretty much went through the looking glass with the 2016 election, and these days it seems the value of verifiable facts is pretty much passe. And as much as it's a legal process, it's a hugely political one, too, which is just plain gamesmanship around who can manipulate public opinion the best.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Sep 25, 2018 - 11:50am PT
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And weird how the Republicans are afraid of getting Mark Judge under oath.
That's the elephant in the room IMO. She claims there was an eyewitness. How often does that happen in sexual assault cases? Judge claims he didn't see it, but he doesn't want to testify under oath and the republicans don't want him to testify under oath. It doesn't prove anything but if he can testify honestly why doesn't he? It seems like the Republicans would love an eyewitness testifying it didn't happen. It indicates to me Judge could be lying and perhaps told people about it so he doesn't want to perjure himself.
This whole thing is almost laughable. Privileged white preppy boys get drunk and treat young girls terribly. And the accused name is Brett Kavanuagh lol! Could you get any more of a preppy name? Sounds like Judge Smails' other nephew.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Sep 25, 2018 - 12:05pm PT
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Pretty much ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Saying you do not remember that happening, not under oath,is not really refuting.
Hell, I don’t remember it happening either,lol.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Sep 25, 2018 - 12:12pm PT
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This whole thing is almost laughable.
You can strike "almost."
The real howler to me is that there could be any sort of realistic investigation of an apparently small high school gathering in the early 80s, at an unknown location and date, and where apparently nothing of any interest happened other than the alleged incident, and which Ford admits she said nothing about for many years.
How could anyone else even know if they were at the gathering that Ford has in mind?
There's something called the CSI effect, where we have an exaggerated view of what investigators can actually do.
This is an interesting article from a former FBI guy about the investigation:
https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/24/opinions/kavanaugh-fbi-investigation-process-gagliano/index.html
While the author seems knowledgeable about FBI investigations and acknowledges the difficulties of an investigation, I think even he understates how silly it is. For example, he talks about doing a neighborhood canvass.
What the heck could a neighbor say about a small gathering of high school students in the early 80s, where, as far as the external world was concerned, absolutely nothing happened?
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