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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 16, 2013 - 06:41pm PT
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Joe, we all know that MSM is controlled by a select few. And those few are also some of the biggest donors to both major political parties of the US.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Jul 16, 2013 - 09:07pm PT
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Email exchange between Edward Snowden and former GOP Senator Gordon Humphrey
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/16/gordon-humphrey-email-edward-snowden
Mr. Snowden,
Provided you have not leaked information that would put in harms way any intelligence agent, I believe you have done the right thing in exposing what I regard as massive violation of the United States Constitution.
Having served in the United States Senate for twelve years as a member of the Foreign Relations Committee, the Armed Services Committee and the Judiciary Committee, I think I have a good grounding to reach my conclusion.
I wish you well in your efforts to secure asylum and encourage you to persevere.
Kindly acknowledge this message, so that I will know it reached you.
Regards,
Gordon J. Humphrey
Former United States Senator
New Hampshire
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 16, 2013 - 09:46pm PT
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The real perpetrators got Hedge right where they want him.
Crawling up a dead end street to Snowden all while they continue their nefarious ways.
All because the Hedge's of the world are too stupid to investigate what's really going on.
Instead the Hedge's of the world look to the stupid CNN Huff post and all their same know nothing speak nothing but blind alley waste of time talk.
Man are Americans stupid as sh!t ......
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Jul 16, 2013 - 09:56pm PT
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Hedge obviously didn't read the link.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/16/gordon-humphrey-email-edward-snowden
Snowden's reply to Sen. Humphrey:
Mr. Humphrey,
Thank you for your words of support. I only wish more of our lawmakers shared your principles - the actions I've taken would not have been necessary.
The media has distorted my actions and intentions to distract from the substance of Constitutional violations and instead focus on personalities. It seems they believe every modern narrative requires a bad guy. Perhaps it does. Perhaps, in such times, loving one's country means being hated by its government.
If history proves that be so, I will not shy from that hatred. I will not hesitate to wear those charges of villainy for the rest of my life as a civic duty, allowing those governing few who dared not do so themselves to use me as an excuse to right these wrongs.
My intention, which I outlined when this began, is to inform the public as to that which is done in their name and that which is done against them. I remain committed to that. Though reporters and officials may never believe it, I have not provided any information that would harm our people - agent or not - and I have no intention to do so.
Further, no intelligence service - not even our own - has the capacity to compromise the secrets I continue to protect. While it has not been reported in the media, one of my specializations was to teach our people at DIA how to keep such information from being compromised even in the highest threat counter-intelligence environments (i.e. China).
You may rest easy knowing I cannot be coerced into revealing that information, even under torture.
With my thanks for your service to the nation we both love,
Edward Snowden
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jul 16, 2013 - 10:21pm PT
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Whereas I never read the nonsense that Jhedge says, I always read what Wbraun and lovegasoline say. They are fairly coherent.
I thought that there was a good point made in the Gov't media (Stratfor) today. http://www.realclearworld.com/articles/2013/07/16/keeping_the_nsa_in_perspective_105318.html It seems like a shitload of words at first. But consider that there are less words than Jhedege posted on this lengthy thread, and this at least, makes much more sense.
Keeping the NSA in Perspective
By George Friedman
In June 1942, the bulk of the Japanese fleet sailed to seize the Island of Midway. Had Midway fallen, Pearl Harbor would have been at risk and U.S. submarines, unable to refuel at Midway, would have been much less effective. Most of all, the Japanese wanted to surprise the Americans and draw them into a naval battle they couldn't win.
The Japanese fleet was vast. The Americans had two carriers intact in addition to one that was badly damaged. The United States had only one advantage: It had broken Japan's naval code and thus knew a great deal of the country's battle plan. In large part because of this cryptologic advantage, a handful of American ships devastated the Japanese fleet and changed the balance of power in the Pacific permanently.
This -- and the advantage given to the allies by penetrating German codes -- taught the Americans about the centrality of communications code breaking. It is reasonable to argue that World War II would have ended much less satisfactorily for the United States had its military not broken German and Japanese codes. Where the Americans had previously been guided to a great extent by Henry Stimson's famous principle that "gentlemen do not read each other's mail," by the end of World War II they were obsessed with stealing and reading all relevant communications.
The National Security Agency evolved out of various post-war organizations charged with this task. In 1951, all of these disparate efforts were organized under the NSA to capture and decrypt communications of other governments around the world -- particularly those of the Soviet Union, which was ruled by Josef Stalin, and of China, which the United States was fighting in 1951. How far the NSA could go in pursuing this was governed only by the extent to which such communications were electronic and the extent to which the NSA could intercept and decrypt them.
The amount of communications other countries sent electronically surged after World War II yet represented only a fraction of their communications. Resources were limited, and given that the primary threat to the United States was posed by nation-states, the NSA focused on state communications. But the principle on which the NSA was founded has remained, and as the world has come to rely more heavily on electronic and digital communication, the scope of the NSA's commission has expanded.
What drove all of this was Pearl Harbor. The United States knew that the Japanese were going to attack. They did not know where or when. The result was disaster. All American strategic thinking during the Cold War was built around Pearl Harbor -- the deep fear that the Soviets would launch a first strike that the United States did not know about. The fear of an unforeseen nuclear attack gave the NSA leave to be as aggressive as possible in penetrating not only Soviet codes but also the codes of other nations. You don't know what you don't know, and given the stakes, the United States became obsessed with knowing everything it possibly could.
In order to collect data about nuclear attacks, you must also collect vast amounts of data that have nothing to do with nuclear attacks. The Cold War with the Soviet Union had to do with more than just nuclear exchanges, and the information on what the Soviets were doing -- what governments they had penetrated, who was working for them -- was a global issue. But you couldn't judge what was important and what was unimportant until after you read it. Thus the mechanics of assuaging fears about a "nuclear Pearl Harbor" rapidly devolved into a global collection system, whereby vast amounts of information were collected regardless of their pertinence to the Cold War.
There was nothing that was not potentially important, and a highly focused collection strategy could miss vital things. So the focus grew, the technology advanced and the penetration of private communications logically followed. This was not confined to the United States. The Soviet Union, China, the United Kingdom, France, Israel, India and any country with foreign policy interests spent a great deal on collecting electronic information. Much of what was collected on all sides was not read because far more was collected than could possibly be absorbed by the staff. Still, it was collected. It became a vast intrusion mitigated only by inherent inefficiency or the strength of the target's encryption.
Justified Fear
The Pearl Harbor dread declined with the end of the Cold War -- until Sept. 11, 2001. In order to understand 9/11's impact, a clear memory of our own fears must be recalled. As individuals, Americans were stunned by 9/11 not only because of its size and daring but also because it was unexpected. Terrorist attacks were not uncommon, but this one raised another question: What comes next? Unlike Timothy McVeigh, it appeared that al Qaeda was capable of other, perhaps greater acts of terrorism. Fear gripped the land. It was a justified fear, and while it resonated across the world, it struck the United States particularly hard.
Part of the fear was that U.S. intelligence had failed again to predict the attack. The public did not know what would come next, nor did it believe that U.S. intelligence had any idea. A federal commission on 9/11 was created to study the defense failure. It charged that the president had ignored warnings. The focus in those days was on intelligence failure. The CIA admitted it lacked the human sources inside al Qaeda. By default the only way to track al Qaeda was via their communications. It was to be the NSA's job.
As we have written, al Qaeda was a global, sparse and dispersed network. It appeared to be tied together by burying itself in a vast new communications network: the Internet. At one point, al Qaeda had communicated by embedding messages in pictures transmitted via the Internet. They appeared to be using free and anonymous Hotmail accounts. To find Japanese communications, you looked in the electronic ether. To find al Qaeda's message, you looked on the Internet.
But with a global, sparse and dispersed network you are looking for at most a few hundred men in the midst of billions of people, and a few dozen messages among hundreds of billions. And given the architecture of the Internet, the messages did not have to originate where the sender was located or be read where the reader was located. It was like looking for a needle in a haystack. The needle can be found only if you are willing to sift the entire haystack. That led to PRISM and other NSA programs.
The mission was to stop any further al Qaeda attacks. The means was to break into their communications and read their plans and orders. To find their plans and orders, it was necessary to examine all communications. The anonymity of the Internet and the uncertainties built into its system meant that any message could be one of a tiny handful of messages. Nothing could be ruled out. Everything was suspect. This was reality, not paranoia.
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Reeotch
Trad climber
4 Corners Area
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Jul 16, 2013 - 11:06pm PT
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Are you begining to smell the fish???
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 16, 2013 - 11:33pm PT
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The guy who cries the loudest and the most knows the least. ^^^^
That's why he needs so much attention.
It's a known fact ......
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Jul 16, 2013 - 11:58pm PT
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werner wrote/spoke/The guy who cries the loudest and the most knows the least. ^^^^
That's why he needs so much attention.
It's a known fact ......
i think you mean guy's and girl's!
shmowden will either be killed by f-35's during his so called amnesty transport or remain in moscow.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jul 17, 2013 - 12:08am PT
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Former Justice attorney seeks $23 billion in damages for NSA surveillance programs
By Josh Hicks, Published: June 13 at 6:00
the writer is aformer Reagan-era Justice Department prosecutor who runs a right-leaning political-advocacy group is suing the federal government over its controversial electronic-surveillance programs.
Activist attorney Larry Klayman filed two class-action lawsuits this week in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia, seeking a combined $23 billion in damages.
Klayman, who founded the political advocacy group Freedom Watch, claims the National Security Administration surveillance programs that monitor phone data and Internet communications violate citizens’ reasonable expectation of privacy, as well as their rights to free speech and freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures.
“Government dishonesty and tyranny against the people have reached historic proportion,” Klayman said in a statement. “The time has come for ‘We the People’ to rise up and reclaim control of our nation.”
Former Booz Allen Hamilton contractor Edward Joseph Snowden leaked details of the surveillance programs to the Washington Post and Guardian newspaper of Britain.
Klayman named the NSA, the Justice Deparment, President Obama, Attorney General Eric Holder and 12 communications and Internet companies as defendants in a class-action lawsuit he filed on Wednesday. In that case, he seeks $20 billion in damages, as well as orders to stop the surveillance programs and eliminate any records collected through them.
Earlier in the week, Klayman filed a separate lawsuit against Verizon and the Obama administration, requesting the same orders in addition to $3 billion in damages.
Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) has also threatened to file a class-action lawsuit against the Obama administration for its surveillance programs.
“I’m going to be seeing if I can challenge this at the Supreme Court level,” Paul said on “Fox News Sunday.” “I’m going to be asking all the Internet providers and all of the phone companies, ask your customers to join me in a class action lawsuit. If we get 10 million Americans saying we don’t want our phone records looked at, then somebody will wake up and say things will change in Washington.”
Obama has defended the NSA surveillance programs, saying the government does not collect information on individual callers or eavesdrop on Americans’ conversations without a warrant. Gen. Keith Alexander, head of the NSA, said during a Senate hearing on Wednesday that the surveillance programs have thwarted dozens of terrorist plots.
Klayman, who describes himself as “the one man Tea Party” in his bio, is no stranger to lawsuits against the federal government. He filed at least 18 against the Clinton administration, according to a 1998 Washington Post article by David Segal.
Klayman authored the book “Whores: Why and How I Came to Fight the Establishment.” He also served as the basis for the character Harry Klaypool in the NBC series “West Wing,” according to his bio.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/federal-eye/wp/2013/06/13/former-justice-prosecutor-seeks-23-billion-in-damages-for-nsa-surveillance-programs/
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 17, 2013 - 12:57am PT
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Poor Joe is at the end of the dead end alley spinning around in circles babbling incoherently.
This is what happens to people who get lost and lose their minds ......
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 17, 2013 - 01:02am PT
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I'm not interested at all in Snowden.
But you are.
You're sucked into the illusion ......
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 17, 2013 - 01:05am PT
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Intel gave Snowden away weeks ago.
You missed the boat all along.
This is what happens to people lost in the dead end alleys .......
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crøtch
climber
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Jul 17, 2013 - 02:54am PT
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"Further, no intelligence service - not even our own - has the capacity to compromise the secrets I continue to protect."
That means he's used encryption that can't be broken in a timely fashion through brute force. It's likely that the keys aren't in his possession, and more than one key from multiple sources is required to decrypt the data.
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Reeotch
Trad climber
4 Corners Area
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Jul 17, 2013 - 08:30am PT
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If you believe Mr. Snowden was acting alone . . . well . . .
jhedge, could you please explain WHY we need covert ops that have no effective oversight or accountability?
Your whole arguement is predicated upon this one big assumption: We NEED all this secret BS. Are you really that blind to the potential for abuse of such programs? What is your apparent trust in the beneficance of our government based on?
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Reeotch
Trad climber
4 Corners Area
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Jul 17, 2013 - 08:49am PT
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C'mon, you're avoiding the question.
Why? For starters, I wonder how much money is going down this black hole that could be used to do something productive.
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Reeotch
Trad climber
4 Corners Area
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Jul 17, 2013 - 08:58am PT
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You don't care???
Funny, you sure do seem to be spending an inordinate ammount of time defending something you don't care about.
Pfffft . . .
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 17, 2013 - 11:02am PT
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The stupid Hedge's of the world conspire with other hedge's of the world to bully, beat the sh!t out of everyone on the planet for their own greedy selves.
Then when those people fight back they call them terrorists that the Hedge's of the world originally created.
The hedge's of the world then create a huge draconian surveillance system which really is a illusionary wall to create the illusion that protects them from the source of their own creation.
Stupidest people on the planet have created this phoney illusionary garbage and have been peddling this garbage for a long time.
People are waking up to these stupid retards running the world into the ground ......
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 17, 2013 - 01:09pm PT
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^^^ Totally creepy story, Lovegasoline.
Yes, incredibly naive to think the blanket surveillance is for "terrorism." And equally naive to think they are collecting only metadata.
FWIW, my favorite definition of metadata is: data about data.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Jul 17, 2013 - 01:17pm PT
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Gen. Keith Alexander, director the NSA: “Rather than look for a single needle in the haystack, his approach was, ‘Let’s collect the whole haystack,’ ” said one former senior U.S. intelligence official who tracked the plan’s implementation. “Collect it all, tag it, store it. . . . And whatever it is you want, you go searching for it.”
"Numerous NSA documents we've already published demonstrate that the NSA's goal is to collect, monitor and store every telephone and internet communication that takes place inside the US and on the earth. It already collects billions of calls and emails every single day. Still another former NSA whistleblower, the mathematician William Binney, has said that the NSA has "assembled on the order of 20 trillion transactions about US citizens with other US citizens" and that "estimate only was involving phone calls and emails."
The NSA is constantly seeking to expand its capabilities without limits. They're currently storing so much, and preparing to store so much more, that they have to build a massive, sprawling new facility in Utah just to hold all the communications from inside the US and around the world that they are collecting - communications they then have the physical ability to invade any time they want ("Collect it all, tag it, store it. . . . And whatever it is you want, you go searching for it").
That is the definition of a ubiquitous surveillance state - and it's been built in the dark, without the knowledge of the American people or people around the world, even though it's aimed at them. How anyone could think this should have all remained concealed - that it would have been better had it just been left to fester and grow in the dark - is truly mystifying.
Perhaps the coining of a punchy phrase by the Washington Post to describe all of this - "collect it all" - will help those DC media figures who keep lamenting their own refusal to cover the substance of the NSA stories begin to figure out why they should cover the substance and how they can. The rest of the world is having no trouble focusing on the substance of these revelations - rather than the trivial dramas surrounding the person who enabled us to know of all this - and discussing why those revelations are so disturbing. Perhaps US media figures can now follow that example."
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crøtch
climber
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Jul 17, 2013 - 03:35pm PT
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from
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/nsa-affaere-jimmy-carter-kritisiert-usa-a-911589.html
translated by google
Former U.S. President Jimmy Carter was in the wake of the NSA Spähskandals criticized the American political system. "America has no functioning democracy," Carter said Tuesday at a meeting of the "Atlantic Bridge" in Atlanta.
Previously, the Democrat had been very critical of the practices of U.S. intelligence. "I think the invasion of privacy has gone too far," Carter told CNN. "And I think that is why the secrecy was excessive." Overlooking the NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden said Carter, whose revelations were long "likely to be useful because they inform the public."
Carter has repeatedly warned that the United States sharply declined due to excessive restriction of civil rights, their moral authority. Last year he wrote in an article in the "New York Times", new U.S. laws "never before seen breach our privacy by the government" allowed the.
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