What is "Mind?"

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WBraun

climber
Nov 18, 2011 - 01:41am PT
The mind is the pivot of the active sense organs, and as such if the quality of thinking, feeling and willing is changed, naturally the quality of actions by the instrumental senses will also change.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2011 - 01:48am PT
I start answering it for you guys . . .

One of the amazing things about subjective experience is that awareness does not discriminate between, for example, the smell of incense, anxiety, dreams of getting laid, memories, projections, ideas, and (fill in the blank). Awareness handles it all seamlessly - subjective, material, experiential, visual, internal and exterior . . .

Another real glitch in the computer or digital model of consciousness is that awareness does not scan qualia as that gadget at the supermarket scans the price tag on Marlow's Cocoa Puffs. We become aware of qualia through being present with stuff, not because there's a homuculous hunkered down inside of us "watching" shite. Our presence has a directionality to it. If our focus is untrained our minds will wander and settle on the shiniest thing in awareness - the "magpie mind." When we can hold an open focus our minds don't wander.

Another amazing thing is the spectacular difference in subjective flow between eyes open and eyes closed.

More later.

JL
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Nov 18, 2011 - 02:13am PT
That's still just your third person experiences and you're still mentalistic and abstract. You are talking and talking, there are loads upon loads of words, but you never walk the talk. Do you want to make sense or are you just fuking around? If you want to escape: Tell us you were just fuking around.

Or give your chance to start making sense your best shot by showing us:

1. Your first person subjective experience
2. Your raw awareness
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Nov 18, 2011 - 07:30am PT
I'll give it a shot using the same frame of reference I used in my previous post. Biochemical reactions and electrical anamolies in the brain are to me, objective experience. As many have pointed out, they can be induced by disciplined practices and also certain drugs and certain mechanical stimulations of the brain. And they sometimes occur spontaneously. They are meat brain activities doing what meat brains sometimes can do.

Subjective first person experience is what the individual decides to do with all the light shows. Do you trip on them or do you change your perspective and build on them, making a different and happier you which can then be more useful to others?

The great unanswered question is what determines why some fry their brains, some go on to more serious drugs, and others devote their lives to meditation and self improvement. Are the differences just small genetic and environmental influences, or are the outcomes dependent on individual inspiration, motivation, and will power probably pre-existing in some form even before the experiences. These questions evoke the very issue of free will, and so far, nobody knows.

As for raw awareness, it's most wonderful quality is that one perceives to share it as a common unifying presence/existence/essence with everything else in the universe. From a physicalist point of view this is subjective meat brain explainable and to the mystic, it is an objective fact of universal existence.

And round and round we go!

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Nov 18, 2011 - 11:14am PT
here is the NIDA's take on drugs and the brain...
http://drugabuse.gov/scienceofaddiction/brain.html

they raise an interesting point for this discussion: "how do you decide on what to remember?"
Stewart Johnson

climber
lake forest
Nov 18, 2011 - 12:02pm PT
in perfection, it is clear light.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2011 - 12:31pm PT
You are talking and talking, there are loads upon loads of words, but you never walk the talk.
-


Walk it for us there, Marlow, but put on some clothes first so you don't embarass your own self.

Or better yet, come to the High Ball event and I'll sit you down and MAKE you take off the pointy hat and put down all those cleaning products and just see what comes u0p to you . . .

JL
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Nov 18, 2011 - 01:09pm PT
Stewart: Whoa. You jumped right up to light speed.

Ed: I wish the NIDA would also talk about the regular addictions that all of us are hooked on: immortality, pleasure, seeing the world in only certain ways, materialism, the absolute sense of self and control of a world, etc.

The article said: Drugs are chemicals. They work in the brain by tapping into the brain's communication system and interfering with the way nerve cells normally send, receive, and process information.

Sorry, but that strikes me really funny. It's similar to the same things that my teachers do. They continue to jam my conceptions, my translations; they keep saying things or putting me into situations where my regular cognitive functions freeze up.

I've taken something from those experiences to my own classes. Works pretty well too.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Nov 18, 2011 - 02:56pm PT
Largo

Embarrasment is simply no option. Neither is shame.

I repeat: You have a chance to start making sense.

You are still just talking from your third person experience perspective and you're still mentalistic and abstract. There are loads upon loads of words, but you never walk the talk. Do you want to make sense or are you just fuking around? If you want to escape: Tell us you were just fuking around.

Or give your chance to start making sense your best shot by showing us:

1. Your first person subjective experience
2. Your raw awareness
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Nov 19, 2011 - 09:59pm PT
The Science of Addiction still can't explain why not all identical twins react to experience, including drugs, in the same way. Perhaps there are tiny differences in the meat brain that we haven't discovered yet, perhaps it is something more ineffable than that, often called character or karma.

As for the question of what we choose to remember, one could also ask why do some people repress memories and others don't? How much of our social milieu determines how we organize our brain?
allapah

climber
Nov 19, 2011 - 11:52pm PT
why not wet d' woo-woo in? teleological backward reasoning from the evidence.

the evidence could be acquired by sending out legions of climbers equipped with neural networks and electromagnetic energy fields. climbers skirt death attractors with hard climbing over ice and rock, creating time distortion perception in the region of event horizons, allowing for trans-temporal perceptions of a weak, but measurable, degree. collect data by creating magazines and forums and campfires and other methods of information transmission. too many stories of intuition and syncronicity (the soloist with an intuition of pure certainty, Comstock saying, "It's [the pillar] talking to me...") for there not to be an acausal priniciple at work: it is the weak organizing force of Mind.
WBraun

climber
Nov 20, 2011 - 12:12am PT
Marlow

Largo left yesterday in this thread.

Why are you still carrying him .....?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Nov 20, 2011 - 04:04am PT
Then no more WBraun. Why are you carrying Marlow?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Nov 20, 2011 - 06:02am PT
coz

You can know yourself without knowing anything about the abstraction of "mind".

If you say you know "What is mind" without knowing yourself, you're lost.

Heidegger's Black Forest - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Mqsu72ZlJ2c
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Nov 20, 2011 - 09:02am PT
The most prolific source of new genes in animals, plants, fungi and other life whose cells have nuclei involves the shuffling or duplication of bits of DNA from existing genes. It was widely thought that de novo evolution of genes was quite rare, because the proteins they code for are often large and complex—most fail to function properly if a single key component is out of place, so randomly evolving a working gene seemed implausible.

When an international team of researchers scanned the human genome for de novo genes, however, they putatively uncovered 60, three times more than once estimated. More surprising, many of these genes are active in the cerebral cortex, suggesting that de novo genes might have played a key role in the evolution of the human mind.

"The cerebral cortex in the brain plays key roles in learning, memory, language, thought, emotion, perceptual awareness and consciousness," says researcher Dong-Dong Wu, a geneticist at the Chinese Academy of Science's Kunming Institute of Zoology, co-author of a November 10 report in PloS Genetics. "Our results suggest that de novo–originated genes may be responsible for some of these characters."

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=late-bloomers-new-genes-may-have-played

Researchers have long known that some areas of the brain are deeply connected to other regions — but now a team from Indiana University and the Netherlands says these connected brain regions form strong connections to each other, creating a cerebral “rich club.”
This club comprises 12 hub regions, which the researchers say are involved in complex human behavior and cognitive tasks. If any of the members of this club were damaged, the effects would be wide-ranging; if brain areas outside the club were damaged, a patient would see localized effects but the overall brain’s information flow would be uninterrupted.

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2011-11/tightly-woven-brain-connections-form-cerebral-super-entity
WBraun

climber
Nov 20, 2011 - 10:25am PT
This guy above is talking about the brain.

This thread is about the mind and "what is mind".

The brain is just a lump of matter that the mind works thru.

Tell us what the "Mind" is and not give us all this mubo jumbo brain drool ....

wack-N-dangle

Gym climber
the ground up
Nov 20, 2011 - 10:29am PT
brain = mind, and back again?

Maybe the material is spiritual? Just grasping at the straws, a previous post. Can we go climbing now?

d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
Nov 20, 2011 - 11:14am PT
awareness of awareness.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Nov 20, 2011 - 01:23pm PT
Here is:

1. [my] first person subjective experience
2. [my] raw awareness






















(There you go.)
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Nov 20, 2011 - 01:51pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=NKbuGQtnnDA
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