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CrackAddict

Trad climber

Canoga Park, CA

Oct 5, 2011 - 05:59pm PT

The laborer doesn't get to save. The excess he produces is appropriated. I think somebody called it accumulation by dispossession.

That is why laborers do not have TVs, IPods, hot running water, or any of those things.

So where do you think the excess goes? In the hands of the business owners? What do you think they do with it?

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Oct 5, 2011 - 06:00pm PT

Anything that LEB says about unions needs to be taken with a large dose of salt. She's a member of what is in effect one of the strongest unions, the nurses. Although not so strong as say the military, police, or prison guards unions.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Oct 5, 2011 - 06:27pm PT

Nurses in every state (and province) have a monopoly on that profession. You can't practice as a nurse without being a member of the college - the licencing and regulatory body. Nurses also separately often belong to associations that represent their professional interests.

Are you claiming that you're not a member of the college of nurses in the states you practice in, as a nurse practitioner?

A college governing a restricted-entry profession is for practical and economic purposes a monopoly, and has much the same role as a union. Hopefully JE can chime in on this one.

Karl Baba

Trad climber

Yosemite, Ca

Oct 5, 2011 - 06:27pm PT

LEB

We should not but I would hardly equate military with unionism. At one point the union served the worker. Now I think the unions are actually harming the workers ability to secure and maintain viable employment. They have negotiated wages and benefits up to a point where it is no longer feasible to manufacture the product in the US.

You really think we can pay people low enough to compete with offshoring to China Lois? Would you really suggest people get $2 an hour?

What does the CEO salary have to do with the workers salary ? - apples/oranges. They are doing different jobs. Each job stands in its own right

The workers, with no union, get their wages set by the CEO and by supply and demand. High unemployment can mean lower wages if lots of folks can do the job. The CEO's salary is often set in collaboration with the Board of Directors who are golf buddies.

They are related because the more the CEO cuts labor costs and benefits, the better his numbers look and the he can demand. Screwing workers can pay really, really well

Note that Japanese CEO only make a fraction of what western CEOs make so when you say a Japanese auto worker costs $40 for a western $75, a Japanese CEO is WAY less than half of a western CEO and socialized health care in Japan reduces direct benefit costs to employers

peace

Karl

John Moosie

climber

Beautiful California

Oct 5, 2011 - 06:33pm PT

Ford paid employees the equivalent of $120K in today's wages, with absolutely no unions (or even taxes). This was 4X the prevailing wage of the day for unskilled labor. Wow, how could an evil capitalist do this?

In 2007 the average US autoworker got $75 in wages and benefits, compared to Japanese workers who got $40 (!!!). Health care costs were about $6 of this ($12,000 per year), but that is another thing Unions demand.

Your facts and figures are bogus and have been proven to be so.

http://mediamatters.org/research/200812060002

then there is your argument that unions are ruining everything. But your example of Ford is that he paid higher wages then the unions are demanding. So yes, as Lois has pointed out, the real way to get rid of unions is to pay so well that no one wants them, but then how would that work with regards to your implied notion that unions are ruining things because they are costing too much. It wouldn't. So your argument is bogus and so are your facts.

dirtbag

climber

Oct 5, 2011 - 06:38pm PT

Aw gee John, now you went and debunked his argument with actual, you know, facts and stuff.

What fun is that?

dirtbag

climber

Oct 5, 2011 - 06:43pm PT

Well, Sarah is not running, but no worries, Cain, Bachman and Perry are doing a credible job holding down Fort Dumbbell.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/sarah-palin-not-running-president-221722785.html

John Moosie

climber

Beautiful California

Oct 5, 2011 - 06:45pm PT

I'm sure the right will rise up and demand that Sarah run.

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber

Joshua Tree

Oct 5, 2011 - 07:28pm PT

CrackAddict

Trad climber

Canoga Park, CA

Oct 5, 2011 - 08:09pm PT

You really think we can pay people low enough to compete with offshoring to China Lois? Would you really suggest people get $2 an hour?

We don't have to. For one, there is a cost that is paid to ship products from China to the U.S., that effectively subsidizes our production. Second, we are more productive. The fact that there are still SOME manufacturing jobs in the U.S. is evidence that we can compete, and we don't have to do it at $2.00 per hour.

Our only other choice is $0.00 per hour. Do we want that?

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Oct 5, 2011 - 08:15pm PT

man heavy Spanish accent. He will be getting $25 bucks (cash) per hour with a hour 4 hour minimum for what I estimate will be tops 90 minutes of work. I am thrilled to death he called and that he will be helping me. What would I do without him?

As a good Republican and law-abiding citizen, you will of course be checking that he is a legal immigrant into the US, and making any required payroll deductions and IRS reporting?

Won't you?

CrackAddict

Trad climber

Canoga Park, CA

Oct 5, 2011 - 08:15pm PT

For everyone who thinks labor is the only valuable capital, and business owners are deadweight that just takes profit from the laborers, how would you put a price on what Steve Jobs did? Apple is the second largest company in the World in market share right now. All of those jobs, all around the World, are a result of Steve's brilliance and dedication.

Rest in Peace Steve. Long live free enterprise.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Oct 5, 2011 - 08:28pm PT

Don't evade the question. You're assuming that it's legal for him to be working in the US in the first place, whether he's an employee or an independent contractor. Don't you have a moral if not legal obligation to ensure that he's legally in the US? Especially in Arizona?

Gary

climber

Desolation Row, Calif.

Oct 5, 2011 - 08:30pm PT

So where do you think the excess goes? In the hands of the business owners? What do you think they do with it?

Uh, do you understand how capitalism works?

TGT

Social climber

So Cal

Oct 5, 2011 - 08:35pm PT

For everyone who thinks labor is the only valuable capital, and business owners are deadweight that just takes profit from the laborers, how would you put a price on what Steve Jobs did?

The four corners of economics are, raw material, capital, labor and entrepreneurial talent.

Nothing happens without the fourth element!

Something that seems to be lost on the libertards.

Karl Baba

Trad climber

Yosemite, Ca

Oct 5, 2011 - 08:41pm PT

So here is a business-minded man who wrote down my number and when I would be needing service and then called me back, early Oct. There is always work for the ambitious and they will always find a way around the system to their advantage. He has a great work ethic and no doubt he will do just fine. Here is one man who is no “victim,” for sure.

I wonder if he has health insurance Lois. A lot of guys working under the table are either illegal or uninsured. (but not all certainly)

It seems like good money to make $100 for an unskilled guy for 4 hours work (what he agreed to) but it's tough to line up consistent work. I'd be surprised if he had health insurance and shocked if he would be covered for disability due to work injuries (like throwing out his back lifting your stuff, would you be insured for that?)

He could be one injury or illness away from total insolvency. Maybe not a "Victim" if he gets a bill for $75,000 from a hospital but still screwed.

Just sayin'

Karl

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Oct 5, 2011 - 08:46pm PT

FatTrad, LEB can call you and get you to tool him. Maybe a bit of waterboarding, if he won't talk.

John Moosie

climber

Beautiful California

Oct 5, 2011 - 09:32pm PT

Nah, I will let you worry about that, instead. Try not to let it keep you up at night.

Now that is funny. You decry illegal aliens. You think they are helping make us broke, but you don't want to do anything about it. Instead, you want your government to do something about it. As long as it doesn't hurt you. And weren't you the one griping about the untaxed workforce?

How ironic.