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Gary

climber
Desolation Row, Calif.
Oct 5, 2011 - 12:58pm PT
And are you not receiving the full fruit of your labor? Can you expand a bit more on that concept. What would, in fact, represent the "full fruit" of your labor?

Of course not. How else could capital become concentrated in the hands of so few.

As Abraham Lincoln noted, labor produces capital, not vice versa.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 5, 2011 - 12:59pm PT
How else could capital become concentrated in the hands of so few.

Probably because they work harder.. hahaha..







Edit: Now that I have made the joke, Lois will retort, "no, they work smarter". hahaha...

It sure was smart to bundle lousy loans into securities and then get the companies who rate securities to give them high grades so that they were easy to sell to all the suckers out there.

Over heat the economy so that we have another recession. Make tons of money off of the recession, then do it all over again.
Gary

climber
Desolation Row, Calif.
Oct 5, 2011 - 01:14pm PT
1. Your wages are too low for the amount of work you are doing
2. Others doing different work are paid more than you

Point 1:
Under capitalism, each worker produces more capital than he receives in return for his labor. This is how capital is concentrated to the benefit of a few. The obverse of this is that some, the capitalist, receives more capital than he produces. Much like a tapeworm in your stomach, which consumes, yet does not produce.

Point 2:
Each is entitled to the full fruit of his labor. No more, no less.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 5, 2011 - 01:39pm PT
Gary,

Your terminology confuses me. How do you define capital? What do you consider the factors of production, and how would you compensate them?

Thanks.

John
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Oct 5, 2011 - 01:40pm PT
I also think it's lame to harrass LEB and it don't work anyway. At least, if you must, harrass her in an entertaining way so it's not just clubbing her on each page.

Regarding how wealth can be created and concentrated, it's worth nothing that moving money around is hardly the hardest or most noble work and traders often make money by betting or even influencing other people's investments will go bad.

For instance, somebody with millions of bucks to bet sells a million dollars of a weak stock short. That in itself influences the stock to go down more (selling stocks makes them go down) and then the guys buys the stock back and makes money.

Check out this traders take on it. (Must See interview on the BBC if you haven't seen it, trader predicts millions of people will lose their savings within the next year and tell how to make bank on it)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=lqN3amj6AcE#!

Peace

Karl
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 5, 2011 - 01:53pm PT
I would like to know why the gap between the wealthiest and the rest of us is growing.
CrackAddict

Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
Oct 5, 2011 - 01:55pm PT
Point 1:
Under capitalism, each worker produces more capital than he receives in return for his labor. This is how capital is concentrated to the benefit of a few. The obverse of this is that some, the capitalist, receives more capital than he produces. Much like a tapeworm in your stomach, which consumes, yet does not produce.

Point 2:
Each is entitled to the full fruit of his labor. No more, no less.


This is drivel. Many companies employ thousands of people, but never make a profit. I am not sure what "obverse" means, but CEOs are workers also, and they are paid for the work they do. Your argument is also pervaded with the false notion that there is a fixed amount of capital, and one's gain is another's loss. This is usually dispelled in the first 5 minutes of Econ 101.

As far as being entitled to the fruit of your labor, there is no such guarantee under capitalism. You might have better luck with Socialism (hint: I don't think you will!). Under capitalism, success is a tautology. The successful tend to accumulate the most capital. Why are they successful? Because they accumulate the most capital. Is it fair? Not always. Deal with it or move to Cuba where you can all share in the fruits of your labors (bananas, if you don't get shot picking one).
CrackAddict

Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
Oct 5, 2011 - 02:00pm PT
I would like to know why the gap between the wealthiest and the rest of us is growing.


Because companies have not outsourced management jobs to India and China yet. Your job can be done in India for 1/3 of your U.S. wage, and although we may be more productive, government regulations will not allow us to compete in price so those jobs are probably lost forever.

Either get a management job or work in the "service sector".
CrackAddict

Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
Oct 5, 2011 - 02:04pm PT
How do we fix the value of anyone's labor?

Here we let the market do it, or at least we do when unions and regulations don't distort it.

In Socialist countries there is no way to fix the value of someone's labor because there is no mechanism to set prices on anything. That is why Socialism fails, and it always will.
euro-brief-guy

Boulder climber
Auburn, ca
Oct 5, 2011 - 02:07pm PT
Who was it that said "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need"?

Oh yeah....Karl Marx.
CrackAddict

Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
Oct 5, 2011 - 02:12pm PT
For instance, somebody with millions of bucks to bet sells a million dollars of a weak stock short. That in itself influences the stock to go down more (selling stocks makes them go down) and then the guys buys the stock back and makes money.


Now days with millisecond trading this is a highly unlikely scenario. When a stock goes down relative to its sector, computers jump on it and buy. This makes the market so "efficient" that there is not much money to be made by anyone, least of all you and I. So many people have jumped on the computerized trading bandwagon that it is not that profitable anymore, because there is such a high cost to setting up servers within a block of the NYSE. This is part of the reason Goldman's stock is sinking.

This makes the market a pure crapshoot. Level playing field through technology!
CrackAddict

Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
Oct 5, 2011 - 02:17pm PT
I also think it's lame to harrass LEB and it don't work anyway. At least, if you must, harrass her in an entertaining way so it's not just clubbing her on each page.

I think when you have to resort to posting someone's picture to try to win an argument, it is pretty clear you are on your last few brain cells. Personally I think it is a nice picture, but it paints an ugly picture of the idiot posting it.

John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 5, 2011 - 02:18pm PT
Well part of the answer is because a whole lot of people have an entitlement mentality where they just sit around and expect to be provided for


A very small part, as we have always had the poor. But the gap between the middle class and the wealthy is growing.

I agree with Crackaddict, that part of the problem is that our manufacturing is going overseas, as decent paying manufacturing jobs helped create the middleclass, but he seems to be saying that what we need to do is reduce the regulations on things like pollution controls.

Is that what you are saying Crack? How do we reverse the trend?

...

Edit: I want to add that any system can be gamed and abused. It is the abuse that government regulations are meant to control. It is also the abuse of our resources that also needs to be regulated.
CrackAddict

Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
Oct 5, 2011 - 02:23pm PT
Of course not. How else could capital become concentrated in the hands of so few.

As Abraham Lincoln noted, labor produces capital, not vice versa.



Actually labor is capital, but...

All labor is not equal according to the market, so why should capital not be concentrated in some hands?
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Oct 5, 2011 - 02:32pm PT
Social scientists have long known that Conservatives do the same processing as Liberals when thinking on an issue, but then do some additional processing to get to the conservative conclusion.

They proved this by showing that if you drugged a Conservative so he wasn’t able to think, he’d come to the same conclusion as Liberals. So basically, if a Conservative can’t think, he ends up like a Liberal…

Why liberals spend most of their time 'feeling' rather than thinking is unknown. It doesn’t help society much and warrants further study… like a study on how the debt and economy will be helped if all liberals were locked up in cages and injected with stuff to make them think until it became
normal to do so. At which time they could be safely released.

CrackAddict

Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
Oct 5, 2011 - 02:34pm PT
I agree with Crackaddict, that part of the problem is that our manufacturing is going overseas, as decent paying manufacturing jobs helped create the middleclass, but he seems to be saying that what we need to do is reduce the regulations on things like pollution controls.

Is that what you are saying Crack? How do we reverse the trend?


We have to reduce the regulatory cost of hiring, and doing business, period. Corporate and payroll taxes must be more competitive, and while I don't advocate lowering pollution controls, I think we need to make some value judgements (personally I think we should tax gasoline a lot more to control pollution). The tort system must be overhauled, right now it is too much of a lottery system that is completely out of sync with real damages. Unions have to be tamed also, their cronyism with the Democrats has done as much damage as the Republican's cronyism with corporations. If you don't believe that go visit Detroit.

We won't be able to compete in every niche, but I think it will stop the bleeding.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 5, 2011 - 02:42pm PT
I agree that our regulatory system has gotten out of whack. Too many stories of small businesses being sued for not having a handicap parking spot and things like that.

On the flip side, our current unemployment insurance system has also gotten out of whack. The employee is no longer protected if he is hurt on the job. Simple injuries, sure, but the more complex ones they are not.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 5, 2011 - 02:43pm PT
conservatives never use drugs.
CrackAddict

Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
Oct 5, 2011 - 02:43pm PT
Have you ever read the book "The Millionaire Next Door." It is very eye opening.

Excellent points LEB. Another takeaway from that book is that you should never live in a house that is larger than you absolutely need. If you have extra space, rent it out.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 5, 2011 - 02:56pm PT
I agree Lois, but the notion put forth by corniss is just crap.. So I was responding to him.

Drug use can also make a person overly aggressive. Should I make a comment about how aggressive the republicans are? Does heart have no place in a republicans life? Not according to corniss.
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