What is "Mind?"

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cintune

climber
Colorado School of Mimes
Jun 13, 2016 - 11:56am PT

http://zeninamerica.com/
jogill

climber
Colorado
Jun 13, 2016 - 12:13pm PT
jgill, Other than the fact that you live in Colorado Springs which is just as fundamentalist Christian as Boulder is far out, I think you don't see Buddhism as an influence in America for the same reason base doesn't see it on this thread. It does not conform to your expectations of a religion as expressed by the Abrahamic faiths (Jan)


I don't live in Colorado Springs. I have lived in a smaller and quieter community about 40 miles south of the Springs since 1986. We have our share of small Christian churches, but far less an influence than in the Springs. And actually, I'm not so naive that I don't know the substantial differences between Buddhism and the Abrahamic religions. Fifty five years ago I studied the Eastern religions for a time, tried my hand at Zen and Yoga, meditated - Chouinard mentions me meditating before we bouldered - and then fifteen years later became involved with the Art of Dreaming, which I found far more impressive and substantive than anything I had previously explored.

I never reached the state of empty awareness (or whatever one wishes to call it), but I understand it is an epiphany of sorts that exerts a powerful influence on those that persist in the practice. My dreaming experiences were life-changers, however, and I had a glimpse of how those ancient religions may have originated.

I'm not even a scientist, although I align myself with those who are on this thread.
cintune

climber
Colorado School of Mimes
Jun 13, 2016 - 02:44pm PT
http://gizmodo.com/we-finally-know-why-birds-are-so-freakishly-smart-1781889157

Suzana Herculano-Houzel and her team at Vanderbilt University discovered that avian brains contain more neurons per square inch than mammalian brains.... Scientists have long wondered how birds — with their teeny-tiny brains — are capable of exhibiting many complex behaviors, some of which were thought to the be exclusive domain of larger primates. Birds can manufacture tools, cache food, plan for the future, pass the mirror test, use insight to solve problems, and understand cause-and-effect....

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jun 13, 2016 - 04:04pm PT
Show me a bird that can pass the mirror test.
cintune

climber
Colorado School of Mimes
Jun 13, 2016 - 04:13pm PT
Eurasian Magpies
The Eurasian magpie is the first non-mammalian species to pass the mirror test.10 When contrasting colored stickers were placed on their feathers, the magpies reacted to their reflections by trying to remove the mark. Birds who were marked with invisible stickers showed no altered behavior.

Prior to this experiment, scientists believed that self-recognition abilities came from the neocortex, a part of the brain found only in mammals. Since magpies are birds, they do not have this part of the brain. Their passing of the mirror test shows that self-recognition ability can arise from other brain parts in other types of brains. Such a thing is a case of “convergent evolution”. This happens when similar abilities, behaviors, and traits independently evolve in species that are not closely related.

http://www.animalcognition.org/2015/04/15/list-of-animals-that-have-passed-the-mirror-test/

We had a very personable crow fly into our yard and proceed to hang out with us for a few days last summer. It was a pretty uncanny experience. It had a distinct agenda of socializing with us, like a dog or cat would, but weird, because it was a big black bird. Lots of Edgar Allan Poe jokes. Later found out that there's an old guy up the road whose hobby is hatching and raising them, then releasing them. No idea how or why he does that.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Jun 13, 2016 - 04:30pm PT
This idea had occurred to me a while ago, but since my books seem to have a mind of their own as to what room that they end up in at any particular point in time, I've been too lazy to "herd the cats" up until now.

This is a photo of books that I have read or referenced over the last few months or, in some cases, few years (I've read all of them at least one - some, several times). In spite of the fact that I am currently a software developer/designer, like Base, I'm also a geologist and worked as a geologist for 15 years. Geology, cosmology, evolutionary biology, and the history of science, in general, have been avocations of mine since college. On one hand, I am admitting my influences, and on the other, I am suggesting some great reading material to the interested.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Jun 13, 2016 - 05:02pm PT
Cintune:

That's pretty cool.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
Jun 13, 2016 - 05:28pm PT
Cintune -

Very interesting info on bird brains and neurons. Pretty convincing for their importance to mind. I'm forwarding the reference to Callie in case she hasn't seen it. The photo you posted however, is not of Zen in America but a Tibetan Buddhist stupa which looks like the one in Crestone. I visited there once looking at real estate and decided too remote, too much sand and too much religion for my tastes, even though most of it was eastern.

eeyonkee -

I have read a couple of those books and excerpts and interviews from a couple more. I think jgill and I are making the same point here, that most of us read and think in fields outside our own individual preferences and talents.

Maybe jgill and I are also both just illustrating Ed's point, humans are divided into pragmatists and idealists even though we cross each other's boundaries from time to time.

MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Jun 13, 2016 - 06:34pm PT
I'm a pragmatic idealist.
cintune

climber
Colorado School of Mimes
Jun 13, 2016 - 07:45pm PT
Jan, yep good catch, that is the stupa in Crestone. Swiped the pic from google images but my daughter and son in law visited there last week.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 13, 2016 - 08:53pm PT
I personally find the fact that the concept of awareness, consciousness and mind as evolved behavior propelled by predator / prey interaction doesn't appear to get much traction here somewhat remarkable given it is traceable both in extant species and evolutionarily in time. I guess animal behaviorists don't climb much.


Evolution of the brain: from behavior to consciousness in 3.4 billion years.

Neurosurgery. 2004 Jun;54(6):1287-96.

Author information: Oró JJ, Division of Neurosurgery, University of Missouri-Columbia School of Medicine.

Abstract

Once life began as single-cell organisms, evolution favored those able to seek nutrients and avoid risks. Receptors sensed the environment, memory traces were laid, and adaptive responses were made. Environmental stress, at times as dramatic as the collision of an asteroid, resulted in extinctions that favored small predators with dorsal nerve cords and cranially positioned brains. Myelination, and later thermoregulation, led to increasingly efficient neural processing. As somatosensory, visual, and auditory input increased, a neocortex developed containing both sensory and motor neural maps. Hominids, with their free hands, pushed cortical development further and began to make simple stone tools. Tools and increasing cognition allowed procurement of a richer diet that led to a smaller gut, thus freeing more energy for brain expansion. Multimodal association areas, initially developed for processing incoming sensory information, blossomed and began to provide the organism with an awareness of self and environment. Advancements in memory storage and retrieval gave the organism a sense of continuity through time. This developing consciousness eventually left visible traces, which today are dramatically evident on cave walls in France and Spain. We will take this journey from the single cell to human consciousness.

http://phys.org/news/2016-04-insects-consciousness.html
Are Insects Conscious?
...
But a recent article in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences rejects this model. Macquarie University’s Andrew Barron, a cognitive scientist, and Colin Klein, a philosopher, argue that subjective experience could be more widespread in the animal kingdom – and older, in evolutionary terms – than we realize.

Subjective experience is the most basic form of consciousness. If a being is capable of having subjective experiences, then there is something that it is like to be that being, and this “something” could include having pleasant or painful experiences. In contrast, a driverless car has detectors capable of sensing obstacles that could collide with it, and of taking action to avoid such collisions, but there is nothing that it is like to be that car.

In humans, subjective experience is distinguishable from higher levels of consciousness, such as self-awareness, which requires a functioning cortex. Subjective experience involves the midbrain rather than the cortex and can continue even after massive damage to the cortex.

Insects have a central ganglion that, like a mammalian midbrain, is involved in processing sensory information, selecting targets, and directing action. It may also provide a capacity for subjective experience.
...
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 13, 2016 - 09:07pm PT
while it seems somewhat trite, you can always start at Wikipedia...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_in_the_United_States
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Jun 13, 2016 - 09:38pm PT
Healyje,

Where do you find these things?

In one article, the author supposedly documents an argument that spans 3.4 million years, the emergence of consciousness, tool development, cognition, neural maps, and cave art. All that in 9 pages. I can see why this article was cited since 2004 by only 24 other works; it’s hardly a barnburner.

Impressive, to say the least.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 13, 2016 - 10:04pm PT
Well, that could be because it's more of an overview piece in a neurosurgery journal - it's not going to get cited in that context. I didn't present it as a science paper per se - simply as another example of that line of thought. I've posted another below it.

The concept is more a staple in the animal behavior world than in any human research. But again - you're basing the legitimacy of the concept and line of reasoning on how many citations that paper has? Seriously? You don't have a mind or eyes of your own? Look around you the next time you're outside, the examples of it are all around you. That predation and the predator / prey interaction was the prime driver of self-awareness, subjective thought and the evolution of consciousness should be a 'no-brainer' from where I sit.

Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
Jun 13, 2016 - 10:25pm PT
Well the article in Wiki that Ed cited is a real jumble of names and facts with no particular organization and certainly no feel for the essence of Buddhism. If a student handed that in, I'd demand a rewrite as it looks like a cut and paste group project with no unifying theme or flow. Given it quotes extensively from a well known history of Buddhism in America, you'd think it would follow the book's organization and list the institutional development in a chronological order at least.

Instead we have a description of Sokka Gakkai, a Japanese post WWII sect in the first paragraph and a discussion of the role of the transcendentalists, and theosophists of 150 years ago many paragraphs later. Ethnic immigrant Buddhism is jumbled in with organizations founded by Americans traveling to Asia. There's no speculation as to why it is attractive to Americans with above average education (which it notes) but a long list of sexual scandals is included. What do you bet that was added later by a Christian editor?
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jun 13, 2016 - 10:39pm PT
Healje "That predation and the predator / prey interaction was the prime driver self-awareness, subjective thought and the evolution of consciousness should be a no-brainer from where I sit."

Yes ; I find myself in the that predator /prey style of mind often while I am meditating. It is a strong ingrained habit but not necessary while I am sitting in a safe room watching my breath. But it is there often in various subtle ways. Fear ; fear of the unknown; fear of what might happen; fear of death. The standard teaching says to recognize it as a constructed story, let it go, and bring your attention back to the moment back to your breath.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 13, 2016 - 10:52pm PT

Birds can manufacture tools, cache food, plan for the future, pass the mirror test, use insight to solve problems, and understand cause-and-effect....

i heard slime mold can too
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
Jun 14, 2016 - 05:47am PT
And here's how I think Buddhism (and Vedanta) have influenced the West, America specifically. I'm pretty sure Toynbee would agree with most of it as in the Toynbee Ikeda dialog.



1. It introduced, along with Vedanta, the idea of tolerance in religion. This is the number one reason converts give for becoming Buddhist. No crusades, no inquisitions, witch burnings, proselytism.

2. It broadened our idea of what religion can be to include non theistic Asian religions.

3. It broadened our view of Asian art and meditation, especially Japanese art forms. Flower arranging and gardening, herbal medicine and even martial arts as spiritual practices.

3. It introduced or some would say reintroduced, the contemplative arts, including meditation, to the West as an alternative to dogma.

4. It showed that religion could be open to science, including evolution, and has held many conferences and published numerous books on how the two can be complimentary. The Dalai Lama has even said, if science proves Buddhism wrong, then Buddhism should change.

5. Through the Dalai Lama, it introduced a spiritual leader with a sense of humor and joy who did not lecture people on specific morals, especially sexual morals, but rather emphasizes compassion to all living beings.

6. Introduced the idea, along with Vedanta, that animals have souls and must be treated with respect. A large number of animal welfare organizations are founded and financed by practitioners of eastern traditions. This view is also evolution friendly.

7. Introduced the concept of karma. 35 years ago, my students had never heard the term, now Willie Nelson has a twangy country and western song about it. It’s significant because it places responsibility on the individual and not some outside entity like the devil. It also emphasizes the interconnectedness of people and that the results of bad behavior have repercussions often already in this life.

8. It introduced the idea of reincarnation. Americans love second and more chances. Even when not interpreted lliterally, it causes a person to ponder where they came from and where they’d like to go in earthly terms. It often gives hope to the terminally ill.


https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=Toynbee+Ikeda+Dialogue

MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Jun 14, 2016 - 07:56am PT
Healyje: you're basing the legitimacy of the concept and line of reasoning on how many citations that paper has? Seriously?


You might not understand what I referred to. The citation count is not the number of resources the paper used, but the number of times the paper itself was later cited by others’ research studies. That constitutes legitimacy / validation within the specialty’s community.

You may not know it, but the number of journals in any one field, and the number of articles that are being published in print and online scientific / academic publications are well beyond anyone’s ability to read them. The citation index is indispensable to figuring-out what to read and what one’s peers think of research efforts.

Perusing a vast array of publications and reading the majority of them might be far less useful than choosing the year’s “10 best” (most highly cited by others) later on and reading those very closely and reflectively. I have found that it sometimes takes me years to really come to grips and understand the twists and turns of ideas and data, and I often do so by listening or reading what others make of seminal or benchmark research studies. Almost always, the most recent blurb or study has little to add to important conversations and dialogues. The seminal works last longer and make larger impacts.

Insightful deep thinking is like good wine: it takes a while to form, and it needs to be rolled around the mind and breathed—maybe even lived—to fully appreciate it. Like meditation, you have to get the gist of it most often through a highly disciplined practice, and then take it off-the-pillow into everyday life.

One would hope that such things would also happen with academic research studies, but they don’t. Academic research studies only change our thinking and our beliefs. We tend to remain the same people in the same worlds.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 14, 2016 - 08:18am PT
certainly citations indicate what is fashionable in research at a given time, but there are often papers that languish with few citations until being "re-discovered."

If you want to guarantee "group think" then reading the most highly cited papers is a way to do it... and also makes it easier to read what other's thought of the paper than dig in and work through the paper yourself.

I read Physical Review Letters most weeks, but not really "read." When a paper catches my fancy I might spend a couple of weeks on really understanding it.

In 1954 C.N. Yang and R. Mills wrote a paper in Physical Review, "Conservation of Isotopic Spin and Isotopic Gauge Invariance"

The paper has 1,427 listed citations on the Phys Rev. site... and over 3,000 on Google Scholar... from 1954 to 1960 it had been cited only 26 times (according to GS)...
from 1960 to 1970 it had an additional 297 citations...

I hear the tsk, tsking of MikeL... "not a barn burner"

yet the next decade saw an additional 622 citations, and since then the added 2000 citations.

It is the foundational paper of the current Standard Model of Particle Physics... when I was in graduate school it was still regarded as a "toy model" for reality... quite a toy.

I don't think that Yang or Mills anticipated the impact, nor did most of the physics community in 1954, the year of my birth...

all that said, I read the paper that healyje linked and it wasn't the best I've read on the subject...

better to judge based on what you understand yourself... if a paper helps you in some way, it is valuable whether or not the "community" so deems.
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