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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Ksolem the guy in fact is aiding with a powewr drill but what he is actually doing is putting up a 5.12 free climb ground up on a big wall. The only thing that changes without the Bosch is the guy is hand drilling. The rest of the tactics are the same. The relavence is that that is what it boils down to when you set a hard bolt protected free climb on lead. A bunch of aid and generaly more holes than if you had rap bolted it.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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"Running it out is proud. But Coz, how do you feel about what your route did to Hank Caylor?"
that is the frickin most lame ass thing you [DR] have said this whole time!
I disagree. I help put up a route that has a serious fall potential.
When I think about the route, I worry about folks flying and getting
seriously injured. I know, that in part, I would be responsible. Not legally,
mind you. But I would have had a hand in it.
I also agree, when you climb, you must take responsibility for your
own actions.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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"Two, by leaving such a route behind, the karma would be on our heads for anyone who did try to follow it, and fell off, and came back down maimed or in a pine box."
"Serious?"
Yeah, Melissa. Don't you feel at least some responsibility for the fallout from your actions?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Tradman- I know exactly what your buddy in the pic is doing. But your claim that most routes bolted ground up have more holes than those done top down is just rediculous.
If anyone wants to see some excellent examples of what is possible drilling by hand from stances, go do some of Ron Carson's routes on Dome Rock, near the California Needles. Your opinion of what is possible in this domain will likely change.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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I've climbed some of Ron's Dome Rock routes. High standard climbing and thin drill stances. But I assure you that this is different.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Ksolem wrote: If anyone wants to see some excellent examples of what is possible drilling by hand from stances, go do some of Ron Carson's routes on Dome Rock, near the California Needles. Your opinion of what is possible in this domain will likely change.
Were they from free stances or from hooks, angle of rock over 75 degrees and polished or feature granite??
What happens on one rock doesn't make it possible for another.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Ksolem. It all depends on how steep it is, how hard it is and what the features are. I am merly pointing out that ground up is often not as pretty as the romantic notions would have it.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Free stances. No hooks. Steep polished slab.
Chemotherapy and Carsonoma are apparently a good bit more difficult than the upper half of GU, based on what has been said earlier here. But actually the most impressive stance drilled bolt he put in there is the crux pro for the 5.11 route called Skid Row. Many people fall just trying to clip it.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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No one called "ground up" tactics/style to be pretty--only FAIR.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Well good on him (Carson), but phoque the Robbin's "Puritan" 'tude...I'm more with Harding, climbing's an "elite egalitarian" type o' activity.
Running it out is proud. But Coz, how do you feel about what your route did to Hank Caylor?
that is the frickin most lame ass thing you have said this whole time!
Not at all, I think that is completely fair game...if you don't think "ego" is involved in any of this biz; (perhaps ex'es, drinking, etc) then I think yer completely unrealistic...and again, who had dee powerdrillz on dee captain? (*not just replacement, there's a big asterisk for ya!).
Good on you, 2 DR. I remember the VC's getting all fired up (looks like his-story repeatin' itself...) Mojede, you better define "it" better; the trads that taught me...see upthread...seen plenty o' botched routes of all types in my days. Even belayed some...
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Ksolem...pretty impressive...I have drill up to 5.12 on stances and have not always got the bolt where needed to protect the crux or dangerous moves.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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"Yeah, Melissa. Don't you feel at least some responsibility for the fallout from your actions?"
The only times someone taking a winger on a route would fall into the category of "fallout from my actions" would be
...I was that person who made some bad choices regarding my abilities vs. the demands of the route.
...I was belaying and yarded my leader off
...I lied to someone to get them to do something that they would not have done otherwise
...I booby trapped gear that they weighted
Bolting to keep the LCD from hurting themself just doesn't work b/c there are so many ways for the LCD to accomplish that.
FWIW, based on the article that I read, I didn't have any issue w/ you guys coming in from the top to see if the route could be finished. I just think the idea that someone like Coz would rack up bad karma for not protecting a competant climber like Hankster from himself out there.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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426, call me a nooB, but the term "ground-up" (the it to which you refer?) is self-defining-- starting from the ground (dirt/terra firma/ bottom) and going UP.
Again, not always pretty and neat, but FAIR.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Well, he seemed to hide under the guise of "for the greater good" on the Muir...and I was someone who was in favor (having clipped the bolts)...so again, it just seems *slightly* hypocritical...
Mojede, check yer mail...
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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426 wrote: the trads that taught me always said ground up is strictly "no hooks, no aid, no batts, stance only, no falls"...any "breach" of "ethics" was exactly that...JTO
Those breaches of style (you call ethics) started way before sport climbing ever existed. Who we going to blame them on??? :)
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Blame Me...I always wanted to hang and figure out moves...but I'd be immediately lowered off....meh!
"Get yer foot off that bolt, Gerughty!"-FS
Good point about "style"...
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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FAIR? That's a new one on me? I never heard that the point of climbing was some kind of fairness.
Fair to who? First ascentionist? Early repeaters? The rock? Gumbies?
If the main goal is to be fair to the largest number of potential climbers, probably better to rap bolt.
If it's some future super-Alex Honnold we want to treat fairly, maybe better not to bolt at all, ground up or otherwise.
If it's the first ascentionist, maybe ground-up is best. But I'd say that's pretty limiting in a very selfish way.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Melissa,
My feeling responsibility stemmed from FA decisions about how runout; your list was all about repeats.
And as far as keeping "the LCD from hurting themselves," we're talking 11+ climbing on the upper wall. I'm not too worried about any LCD-types wandering onto it. Just concerned about good climbers like Hank getting really racked up.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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I posted about half way through this thread, so I am not posting this one just to push the numbers up.
Kevin, good post (April 7 1:41, I think).
Doug I met you once with Smoke Blanchard in the Palisades back in the early 1970s. I always had respect for you as a climber and mountaineer. Still do.
I must say, there are some egos in the climbing world, but I guess that has always been the case. Sort of one thing that always turned me off, though I have been climbing since 1969 and I love it. Still, some of the personalities. Yet, that is life and the world.
I find this thread sad and funny at the same time.
So I suppose, the question is: Do you circumcise your child or not?
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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426, good enough and point well made, but exceptions to the "rule" do not the rule make.
stevep: it sounds as if you are advocating "the ends justify the means". In a gentleperson's sport, "fair" is the basics for style and ethics.
And yes, the term is broad and undefinable, yet each one of us knows exactly what it means to us personally.
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