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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2013 - 05:02pm PT
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Okay fellas,
Speaking of Burning Down the House, and not the route or its author per se …
I'm heading out into full conditions and down into Boulder for an anniversary dinner with my wife. I can't promise I won't check in when I get to the gym.
Anyhow,
It's your prerogative, but I'd prefer not to come back in the morning as it were and find empty beer bottles strewn about, torn carpet, broken glass, spilled bong water, ladies panties, used condoms, black eyes, graffiti, flat tires, no pizza left in the fridge, … or any other similar remnants of a drunken brawl here on this thread upon my return!
(just a preference, not a command or anything silly like that)
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Darn Dingus.... I was really hooing to represent on the fourth in the local parade.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Kind of busy, but...
Local perspectives during my learning curve from the late-1960s to the early-1980s seemed often shaped by the the actions and styles of the leading regional or local climbers.
With Stannard, Barber, Laeger, Bragg and multiple others setting the tone, we had a version of clean climbing and bold adventuring to try to emulate. There were numerous issues with the land managers as climbing went through that particular popularity surge and efforts were made to ensure that the crags weren't closed to climbing. Good housekeeping was important. There was plenty of unclimbed rock to be had at all grades and keeping to "good style" was generally not a problem for those wanting to do new routes.
The smaller size of the crags, lack of terrifying alpine weather, and smallish size of the climbing community throughout the Northeast might have led to a British-like treatment of climbing where style could become more important than topping out. We did not have bigwalls within a weekend drive and without the scale of western crags to play on, games based on style helped keep things interesting. Plus we often thought that we had to get really good before we traveled to the big places.
New Hampshire and the Adirondacks had worse weather, more bugs, and more crack climbs that favored more of a "Yosemite ethic" compared to the Seneca-Gunks trends. Pulling out a North Country rack of nailing iron and shaking it to produce that certain sound in the parking area at the Gunks seemed to rile up the true purists. There were regional differences within the regions. It was fun to go to a different are to see how the game was played there.
Having said this, ethics and style are personal and can create a fun sense of play between friends. By re-casting the game you play, you may be able to keep climbing interesting and relevant as you keep climbing at your same local crags. You can always do a climb better! Hopefully you can still have fun and find adventure in it.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2013 - 06:25pm PT
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I don't know the guy but 'trad' just doesn't sound like him, nawmean? We do Ding.
Trad is the contraction.
Yes I too highly doubt Higgins used that form.
Nevertheless, splitting hairs aside, his ample use of the word traditionalist set the tone and paved the way for common usage.
Trad was likely the result. Tracking slang with any deeper vigor is a fool's errand, no?
No doubt the word was given birth in Higgins' operating room. This should suffice.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2013 - 06:27pm PT
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hahahahahha.
Yah Dude. True Dat.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2013 - 06:32pm PT
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Sport climbers hung that facile tag "Trad" around our pearlescent necks!
On your feet gents!
To your mounts!!
Torches ablaze!!!
Let's settle their hash on this score once & forever!!!!!
Cry havoc!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Phew. Dodged a bullet there. 'Cause if Higgins' placed bolts aren't considered traditional, I'd sure hate to think of him as a sport climber.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2013 - 07:26pm PT
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Todd Eastman,
Could you please do me a favor when you get a chance & review post #1077, Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2013 - 09:20am PT?
I'd like some input on capturing the essence of this thing in a bottle as it were, in service of what you suggested yesterday; namely that I distinguish between art & sport.
The two posts recapped & now residing at post 1077 reflect my best effort to date to do so, yet they weren't originally composed to serve the purpose which you pointed to, so I can see how some more work is due in accomplishing the task and I'd appreciate some feedback.
Thanks,
Roy
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Roy, both of those are nice summaries of our generation's perspective on free climbing, clean climbing, trad climbing, or what ever we want to call it.
The difference between art and sport is really hard to peg. While sport might be more result driven and art more process driven, they both need to be present to make real improvements in an activity. In climbing, sport climbing probably is more result driven and trad climbing more based on honoring the process. I think we all utilize both aspects depending on where we are at , at the moment. Individual bouldering vs group bouldering may display this a competition factors in. Competition can be either supportive or destructive depending on the people involved. So art, sport, and competition are part of the climbing mix.
The ground up idea as described by both Long, and Werner had great appeal to many of us suburban kids that aspired for adventure and the local crags along with the friends and shared rules of engagement gave us a version of adventure. We weren't in the big mountains or in the Valley, but ground up, no-gear-pulling, run-out shakefests seemed to be the right type of practice... and it was fun.
The second piece deals with the concept of looking very carefully a the rock to either place gear or find some hidden solution to a move or series of moves. The entire premise of the Chouinard Chockology was that to shift from pins to nuts, a whole different way of looking at the rock was needed. This was not just necessary for using chocks but for higher standard climbing in general.
Both pieces are about self imposed choices that help create an environment which makes climbing challenging, fun, and perhaps meaningful on a personal scale. When a community shares many of these elements, it can be persuasive as a version of the sport. Since climbing can be hazardous, ambitions differing, and the normal ups and downs of climbing, situational ethics will always play a role.
In both pieces what I see is a strong need to re-create and/or describe the incredible period in the climber's life when the learning curve was fully engaged. It does seem that many climbers dropped out of the sport when the learning curve became a series of incremental gains. I suggest that those of us who have climbed for a long time and still enjoy it in some way have had to re-invent the activity to keep it meaningful and worth the time. That in my mind is artistic.
I will give them a better read in a while.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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An example of what "modern trad" climbers are up to: headpointing (or highballing---according to the author he had three pads underneath, but "even with pads it feels a little bit too high to be a boulder problem.")
http://vimeo.com/64967928
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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From Climbing 186 (June 15, 1999) page 108
Rockcraft: Trad Rock
Path of the Elders
Traditional climbing is all about breaking rules
by Jeff Achey
Traditional rock climbing? Sounds like a bunch of old timers wearing knickers and following the rules. But what rules? On California granite in the days of yore, "traditional" first ascents were led on-sight, placing bolts. Drillers! said the Coloradans. Over on English gritstone, bolts were shunned (still are) -- tradition said rehearse relentlessly before leading (soloing). Sissy topropers! said the Californians. No bolts in the Gunks of New York, either. There, climbers worked in teams of 12, stringing dubious gear ever higher up the pitch. Gang-bang yo-yoers! said the sport climbers. Fact is, trade climbing have never agreed on much, except breaking rules.
If there is a common thread in the trade world, it has something to do with seeing a bigger picture, taking natural rock as it comes, and climbing in a way that matches. If sport climbing takes gymnastics outdoors, trade takes mountain scrambling and gives it wings.
Key to the feeling is invoking the spirt of mountain and crag, the inherent hazards and joys. As a trade climber, you can't be squeamish. You'll be up on the cliffs when it rains. You'll use loose handholds. On a great day maybe you'll get lost, cold, scared and hungry. And when you make it back, a can of beans never tasted so good and the campfire feels like the warm embrace of Mother Earth herself...
List of "long and free" trad routes:
Labyrinth Wall V 5.11c Cannon Cliff
Volunteer Wall V 5.12a Whitesides
Glass Managerie IV 5.13a Looking Glass
The Free Nose V 5.12b Black Canyon
Diagonal Direct to D1 VI 5.11d Diamond
North Face of Mount Hooker V 5.12 Wind Rivers
Moonlight Buttress V 5.12d Zion
Original Route V 5.12b Rainbow Wall
Freebird (Salathe Wall var.) VI 5.12d Yosemite
Southern Belle V 5.12b Yosemite
All Along the Watchtower VI 5.12 Bugaboos
The Shadow V 5.13b, Squamish
Pan American Route V 5.12b Gran Trono Blanco
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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It's big, it's bad, it's retro-trad
Verm proposes a solution to all ethical squabbling, and a new game for climbers to play
If there is one thing climbers love as much as ticking off a hard-fought goal, it's a good old-fashioned ethical pissing match. This bickering is perhaps the one aspect of climbing that hasn't changed in the last 500 years. Naturally, the existence of ethical controversies requires differences in style, but there needs to be more: a willingness to disrespect others.
Back in Basic Rockcraft (1971), Royal Robbins offered up a solution to climbers' ethical squabbling. He called it the First Ascent Principle. It suggested that if all climbers respected the style of the first-ascent party, then people wouldn't get pissed off because their routes were retro-bolted or chopped or whatever. His was the old live and let live philosophy.
Close on the heels of the First Ascent Principle was the philosophy that a climber repeating an established route should climb in as good a style or better than that of the first ascent. If the climber wasn't ready, he waited until his skills improved. Success was then accompanied by a tremendous feeling of accomplishment, intensified by bringing oneself up to the level of a climb, instead of bringing the climb down to one's level. For me, these rewards have led to a lifelong passion for the sport. When it comes time for me to get in the coffin, I'll climb in.
It's hard for me to imagine approaching the sport in any other way, but plenty of climbers do. In the last decade, srtle of ascent has taken a nose-dive, which is most obvious in the sport-climbing arena. Leading with all gear preplaced caters to the lowest common denominator. My 200- plus-pound cholesteroloholic nonclimber landlord could safely try To Bolt or Not to Be (5.14) at Smith Rock, but I'd never let him take the sharp end on the First Flatiron (5.4) near Boulder. Of course, if people want to spend their climbing careers clipping bolts and not enjoying the greater thrills offered by clean gear leads, that's their prerogative. At times, however, sport climbing and clean climbing come into conflict, breaking down the First Ascent Principle.
Sport climbs can infringe upon other climbs in three ways. Retro-bolted routes are the most obvious example. Short of adding more holds, slapping bolts into a climb previously done without them is the ultimate in bringing a climb down to one's own level. Take Eldorado Canyon's Guenese -- it used to really mean something when you led that route. A couple of quarter-inchers and a questionable pin led to the section below the roof, where, if you bothered, you could stuff a wired Stopper behind a flexing flake. It was just psychological pro, because everyone who fell on those moves ripped the nut and stopped five feet off the deck. Embarking on that runout, you wondered if the aging upside-down pin would hold another fall. If you led that route you belonged to an exclusive club. Now there's a bolt there and a few more above. If someone says he did Guenese, chances are he hasn't shared the experience of those who put it on the line.
I could fill this column (and several more) with a list of other such emasculated routes, but let's get on to a more insidious form of contempt: establishing new bolted lines close enough to existing routes to alter their character. The best example is a line Richard Rossiter bolted next to Perilous Journey on Eldorado's Mickey Mouse Wall. Perilous Journey is another of the routes where a lead or solo (the rope being excess weight on this one) puts you in a very exclusive club. If you get in trouble on Perilous Journey, you either have to climb through, downclimb, or deck out. With the new bolts nearby, you could weenie off to the side. When I heard about these bolts I was foaming at the mouth to chop them, though it would mean departing from my long-standing policy of only chopping bolts added to routes on which I participated in the first ascent. The debate as to whether I should change policy was moot. I was told I'd have to get in line to chop them.
That atrocity is gone, but not so another route from the same drill - Bird of Fire on Chiefshead in Rocky Mountain National Park. Here the line is removed enough from the adjacent gear-protected lines that their feeling of commitment is still pretty much intact. However, the overall experience of the wall is diminished. It used to be a major accomplishment to do a route on the big, brooding northwest face of Chiefshead. Now anyone can join the Chiefshead Club if they can hike five miles and clip a rope through a carabiner. Again we have disregard for the first ascents of others.
Another prime example of such disrespect occurred on Chinaman's Peak in the Canadian Rockies last year. The route Sisyphus Summits recently reduced that face from a serious balls-out undertaking to a single-rope, 11-draw sport route. Blob Wyville, a Canmore local of umpteen years who lives in the shadow of Chinaman's Peak, was so disgusted he penned an opinion piece entitled Sissys on Sisyphus in the Calgary Mountain Club's newsletter. In it he reminded us that the history of climbing has been one of striving to improve upon the style of climbs done before. He also informed us that local tradition has supported the removal of fixed protection when a route has been climbed without it, resulting in the cleaning up of many fixed pins.
Wyville's opinion piece led me to an interesting thought. Sport climbing has been dying a natural death lately. The fastfood nature of sport climbing provides only fleeting satisfaction; hence, guys like Jim Karn and Ben Moon have been seen swinging ice axes lately. Karn even asked me for a "Sport Climbing is Neither" bumper sticker. Take a gander at the Who's Cool column and you'll see more and more climbers labeling themselves as "all-arounders." The sport-climber label, now so intimately associated with Mountain Dew ads and MTV, has become distasteful. The young climbers of today are no more interested in mimicking Watts and Karn's style than Watts and Karn were in emulating Barber and Bachar. So what direction can the sport head now? Retro-Trad ascents.
Retro-tad is of course a misnomer. I'm not talking about going back to traditional style. My God, that would mean climbing like Robbins. That would mean respecting others' first ascents. (OK, so Robbins slipped on the Dawn Wall; he admitted it, though.) The new school of Retro-Trads, call them Rads, will attack the bolted climbs of the world with a rack of gear around their broad bronzed shoulders. They'll clip as few bolts as possible, protecting themselves with clean gear, and they'll remove the bolts they don't use. This will benefit the climbing world in many ways.
First off it won't be an embarrassment to be a climber anymore. My friend Rufus teaches high school. He has also taken a 150-foot fall on El Cap without leg loops, then gone back a week later and finished the route. When he told his students he was a rock climber they instantly labeled him a wimp, associating him with all those guys out there climbing in leotards. Rad ascents will put adventure back into climbing. Climbers will bring themselves up to new levels of strength, boldness, and commitment.
Secondly, Retro-Trad ascents will benefit access. By removing bolts from the crags, climbers will be seen as environmentally friendly. Anyone who has dealt with land managers knows that bolting is one of their biggest concerns about climbers' impacts. Many land managers view bolts as a symbol of climbers imposing their will upon Mother Nature without regard for environmental concerns or other user groups. They don't buy the line that bolts are just cigarette- sized chunks of steel in the rock. Less bolts, fewer problems.
What about climbers' egos? How will we keep them intact? Once again Rad ascents come to the rescue. As the amount of unclimbed rock diminishes and the climbing population soars (one estimate has it doubling in the next three years) there will be fewer first ascents per capita to do. Nevertheless, one line can have numerous Retro-Tiad ascents. Joe Blow can get his name in Hot Flashes for bypassing half the bolts on Scarface. Then Jane Blow gets a contract extension for eliminating three more via some strategic clean gear in pockets. Finally Joe Jr. makes the cover of Climbing for doing it all clean. More glory per square inch of rock; this trend could last for decades.
What about the climbing industry can they cash in on Retro-Trad ascents? Big time, baby - Big Time cha change. Hangers and quickdraws don't cost much; technologically advanced gear does. The Retro- Trad revolution will pump up sales quicker than Congress fattening the defense budget. Rad ascents will encourage the development of new gear; stuff that will put SLCDs on the mantel shelves next to the old ring angles and 10-point crampons. As the manufacturers get fat on sales, more sponsorship dollars will come available, and they'll go to those using the new clean gear.
How about national pride? I constantly hear how we have to catch up with the Euros, that they are the superior climbers. How did they get that way? By changing the rules. By missing out on the free-climbing revolution in the'60s and'70s (free climbing in its original form, not hanging on gear) and going straight from "French Free" ascents to hangdogging, the French got the jump on everyone, It's easier to be "superior" if you play by a different set of rules. By embracing the Retro-Trad ethic now, North Americans can once again be on top where we like to be.
What about the sport climbers who will lose their precious fixed pro? How will they continue to pursue maximum gymnastic difficulty on the rock? By bouldering and toproping. It doesn't take an Einstein to figure out that you can do harder gymnastic climbs if you don't have to let go to clip gear. Imagine how lame the level of Olympic gymnastic competition would be if the contestants stopped after each tumbling move to clip a bolt. Someday some badass will toprope the world's hardest climb, then move on to a harder toprope project instead of bolting and "leading" the last one for the photographers. At that time, gymnastic climbing standards will soar. For those sport climbers who still need to clip bolts we have no shortage of gyms, plus the continent ofEurope.
More adventure, more access, more glory, more pride, more money: the Retro-Trad juggernaut is rumbling our way. Is it unstoppable? There is one alternative. Those climbers who plugged all the retro-bolts in the old trad routes or bolted new lines on traditional crags could quickly remove all their bolts and send them to me at Climbing Magazine with a signed note apologizing to those climbers, past, present, and future, whose climbing experience they've diminished. At the same time, those folks who have chopped bolts from routes first done as sport climbs can replace the bolts and send in their apologies as well. This would mean subscribing to the First Ascent Principle and treating other climbers with the respect they themselves desire.
Naaahhh, forget I even mentioned it. Before that happens, we'll all be frontpointing in Hell.
Climbing 157
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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When it comes time for me to get in the coffin, I'll climb in.
If only, huh...
Of course, if people want to spend their climbing careers clipping bolts and not enjoying the greater thrills offered by clean gear leads, that's their prerogative.
He's called them boys "losers" in his up-the-sleeve way, ma! More Pa-corn...
Roy, keep up the stimulus and thanks for the serious tone. It's good to see that humor is enlivening things, as well.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Only a matter of time til this thread got back to slamming sport climbing.
How's that disappearance of sport climbing turning out Verm?
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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The buzzer sounded a long time ago signaling the end of the fourth quarter between Essence and the Rules. In fact some of the Rules' starting 5 have died. But a minor Rule coach is still on the floor with the second or third (maybe 20th?) squad going over the game plays of how they lost. Some are even trying free throws from the center line. The game was never this close.
Truth is there will never be a rematch because Essence distilled from Rules rules the game rules they wanted. Essence now lacks some of the skills to play by Rules rules. Rules are a group of sore losers, contrary to what Shermam has portrayed this as in his ridicule of Essence during the rivalry days.
Attendance at Rule games with Rock is way down nowdays. The minor coach thinks he needs a marketing strategy to get more recognition and players? Ironically Rule player profess the likes of Solitude and "No Trace", so why do they want more players? It seems they would like a shrinking lot of players to achieve their end and manage the rules of Rules.
Of course Rules believes they are part of the bigger game and deserve universal membership in No Trace. No Trace is the highest rank in the Hall of Fame one can achieve in minimum green shoe size. The membership granting committee of No Trace states in their rules for consideration that you cannot have done anything to qualify.
But an Essence member has discovered a universal Mathematical Truth comparing Rules and Essence. Without math symbols here is the wording of the observation:
The Trad Sum of {NO TRACE in Cracks}from FA to Present assents MINUS 10( + or- 7)times the Sport Product of {3/8*3/8*Pi/4*4} >> 0.0
Think of the equation in terms of volume.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 10:53am PT
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Patrick Compton stated:
Only a matter of time til this thread got back slamming sport climbing. Surely you recognize Patrick, that for my part the antics upthread about the coining of the term trad by sport climbers and my cry for punitive actions is purely tongue-in-cheek. Satirical commentary. Do I need to put emoticons after it?
Play fair here Patrick; unless it's a tongue-in-cheek statement coming from you in response, very few of us to my recollection have bashed sport climbing anywhere on this thread.
Perhaps you saw that about my faux tirade and you are focusing purely on John Sherman's piece as exemplified by the subsequent quote:
Hows that disappearance of sport climbing turning out Verm? As to John Sherman, first off, yes at one point he got really fired up about defending trad. I had personal discussions with him about this at a time when all he wanted to do was go Alpine Climbing! What, the Boulderer/Caterpillar emerges from his cocoon to become exalted Alpinist/Butterfly? I don't know how that turned out for him; I believe he did an ascent of Black Ice Couloir.
Second, Sherman’s also a bit of a troll on the whole matter I must say; 2 parts serious, 1 part satire.
Third, what he was talking about has actually happened to a certain degree: modern trad now encompasses sport climbing tactics, not just for the sake of extending difficulty on gear, but also to retain commitment and adventure. So much so that some of you have redefined and omitted certain things from trad such as climbing in Indian Creek. This is actually in the spirit of classic trad to contemplate such an omission! Modern trad is a fusion of sport and trad and in many cases young sport climbers are the ones who redefined trad with an element of sport, but the key here is their focus on commitment as with head pointing.
Examples: there's a route in Boulder Canyon called China Doll; essentially a bolted crack. Adam Stack some years ago became the first to lead it on gear only. Nick Berry recently did the same and wouldn't even use a preplaced directional which was left in situ only to help him strip the route of gear between tries. Lots of these guys started out sport climbing and started out climbing in gyms.
The very version of trad which you espouse is much the fusion which Sherman describes, no? At least in spirit; taken literally, I don't think people will be stripping the bolts from Smith Rock anytime soon.
I doubt pure sport climbing is ever going to go away because it still seems to be one of the best ways to pursue pure difficulty on lead. It's also excellent training for hard trad which we discussed some many hundreds of posts back.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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do illustrate why it should be nailed down
An Ethical ought?
If you fools believe in No Trace how the hell will you gather evidence to nail down an illustration that should be necessary?
Or is this the Jon Stewart way of just poking fun about our quandaries?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 10:59am PT
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Dingus McGee,
I've read what you just posted (now two posts back in your post sequence) three times. I'd like to say that I understand something of what you are getting at and I think I have some feeling for it, but in total I'm going to need the playbook for it. What is it you are driving at please? Can you perhaps elaborate?
Meanwhile, yes I'm going to continue to pursue the essence of the thing we are now provisionally terming Classical Trad as opposed to merely defining its rules. If you find that effort alone distasteful I will please ask you to refrain from criticizing the effort merely on the grounds that you'd prefer not to hear it. Fair enough?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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"Bless me, Father, for I have sinned. My last confession was, well, about
the same time I went sport climbing. But I have led a wholesome life since."
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 11:05am PT
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Dingus McGee, please!
If you fools believe in No Trace First off: you are engaging in ad hominem attack by calling us fools.
Second: I can't state any more clearly that we allowed far back in this thread that all climbers embark upon environmental damage. The leave no trace piece has more to do with the evolution of clean climbing and free climbing in the 70s than it does any sort of defense of trad or likewise any condemnation of sport climbing.
Please consider that I'm asking you to desist from projecting this divisive position onto us throughout this thread. Please Dingus.
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