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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Sep 19, 2012 - 03:07pm PT
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No reason for an ar-15 for home defense.
If they're that close. Shotgun or pistol works.
I'm all for the light on the front of the pistol, or even shotgun.. Gives you advantages.
Should always keep at least 1 mag full of Hollow points.
Holster? Are you really gonna have time to put one on, or even holster it in home defense? Defending your home, don't put your weapon down.
Pockets make great mag pouches.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Sep 19, 2012 - 03:32pm PT
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"I have read that a clear-cut self-defense shooting in CA will cost in excess of $60K in bail and legal fees. You will be arrested and you will be in jail for a while. "
I've heard similar...and that's assuming it's as 'clear-cut' as possible.
When/if the choice is made to shoot an intruder...
a)Make double-damn-sure it's the best/only choice
b)Ensure the shooting achieves it's goal completely...leave no 'second story'
These kinds of reality checks on the implications of gun use are especially useful in helping homeowners make informed decisions about gun ownership & training. If you can direct me to good, rational sources like this, I'd be much obliged.
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MarkGrubb
climber
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Sep 19, 2012 - 03:32pm PT
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AR? Depends what your "home" consists of. I live in a rural setting on acreage with multiple outbuildings on it. Even in a normal urban setting it can be an appropriate weapon. Most modern police SWAT and "entry teams" employ .223/5/56 caliber AR weapons in very tight indoor spaces. The scenarios they face are similar to what a homeowner would face in terms of distances, mobility, and over-penetration issues.
Pistols are preferred by many for HD due to their small size, easier retention, one-handed operation and mobility in tight spaces. If one is barricading in a safe space, a long gun (or 3) is preferred.
The Holster is to use in training with, at the very least. In addition, there are many reasons you might like to get both hands free and move yet not lose control of, and immediate access to the weapon. Stuffing a chambered Glock or similar "safe action" weapon into your waistband or pocket is highly conducive to a negligent discharge.
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MarkGrubb
climber
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Sep 19, 2012 - 03:44pm PT
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Apogee:
The $60K figure came from an experienced defense lawyer that a close friend consulted after shooting an intruder. His case was very clear cut, he only wounded the intruder and was in a highly pro-gun county that is essentially shall-issue on concealed carry permits (Kern). Even though it was obvious was occurred, that he was a pillar of the community, and well known to the cops, and clearly in the "right", he was still arrested, hassled by the cops, put in jail, and lost the gun. The DA eventually declined to press charges on either player but it still cost my friend $30+K in legal/bail fees. The intruder then filed a restraining order against the friend whoich was granted.....
My observations and experiences with the legal system indicate that getting involved in any way or form is to be avoided at almost all costs.
Masad Ayoob writes authoritative books on the legal aspects of armed self defense that are highly regarded. Scott Reitz's classes are said to address this issue well. The CalGuns folks are a class act as well. The forum requires some filtering but there is a great deal of valid information there. If I was involved in any gun/law related hassle, they would be my first contact.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Sep 19, 2012 - 03:45pm PT
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Are you the guy who walks around the house with a holstered gun sippin coffee on the porch at 6am waiting for an intruder?
You can't shoot someone who is robbing you. Only if THEY ARE ENDANGERING your life. So if they're in a building that's on your property away from you, and you shoot them with your AR from your porch, then you're a murderer. There was no self defense there.
A CLEAR CUT CASE OF SELF DEFENSE.
Someone threatening your life with a BRANDISHED weapon.
That's it. Threats, robbing, etc. Those aren't reasons for self defense.
Someone could break in and say "I'LL KILL YOU IF YOU'RE IN HERE"
If they don't have a weapon, you're SOL.
If they're robbing you, open the door for them, help them down the steps. They can sue you if they hurt themselves on your property while stealing your property.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Sep 19, 2012 - 03:52pm PT
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I'd hate to say it, but you shoot to kill.
Don't injure. They'll sue. They'll win.
Their word vs. yours.
Victim vs. Perp.
They got shot? They're the victim.
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MarkGrubb
climber
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Sep 19, 2012 - 03:58pm PT
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Michaeld:
You are not correct.
The standard in CA is a reasonable belief that you are in immediate danger of great bodily injury or death.
An individual who is robbing you with a weapon and/or violence would allow the victim to deploy lethal force. Same for a violent carjacking. A physical weapon is not required; a large disparity in physical size or capability is adequate. There is also no requirement for retreat.
An intruder breaking into your home and stating "I am going to kill you" would justify lethal force in CA as would confronting an intruder in your barn who expressed or led you to believe by his actions that he was going to do you great bodily injury or kill you would suport a justified shooting.
Case law in CA supports lethal force in all of these instances.
One should shoot to center of mass (upper chest) and shoot until the threat is neutralized; i.e., they stop the behavior that caused you to feel threatened. If no effect, attempt a head shot (a difficult target). Any more shots fired and the law will consider it murder. I have been taught to "follow the threat to the ground looking through the sights".
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Sep 19, 2012 - 04:02pm PT
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But can you prove it?
And those are not clear cut cases.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Sep 19, 2012 - 04:03pm PT
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I'll give my broken record speech on responsible gun ownership.
Anyone who purchases a firearm, any firearm, who intends to use it to protect themselves or others needs to understand they've made a lifestyle choice too. Buying a gun, shooting off 20 rounds, and dropping it in the drawer/closet/glovebox for the next 10 years constitutes a hazard IMO. To be responsible and effective when the time comes to actually have to kill someone you must practice loading/shooting/clearing jams in that firearm regularly.
I always tell a new gun owner not to worry about the purchase price of whatever firearm floats their boat. It's a small number in any case compared to the 5 times that amount you'll need to spend on ammunition for even a basic level of competency.
I've trained a lot of people. Handguns in particular take a LONG time to master. Everyone is different but I have yet to see anyone new to firearms really comfortable with a particular centerfire pistol in under 2000 rounds over a few months. Even with a basic pump shotgun (870,etc) I like to see at least 1000 down the pipe. It takes awhile for the brain to really develop the muscle memory to perform the proper steps without thinking. Considering that in a real situation you'll be operating at about 20% of capacity you can see why flawless execution in practice is required.
For common home defense your best bet is to call or visit a few local ranges and ask them. We give different classes to different folks and customize every job. It really depends on the person and what works best for them. I really don't see the point of signing up for exotic and probably expensive classes. Learn the weapons you intend to use.
The most important thing is continued practice. That means, for most, pricing in range membership fees + training ammunition + targets for the rest of your life. It's not a trivial $$$ amount either.
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MarkGrubb
climber
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Sep 19, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
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I would agree 1000% with Fear, with the exception of the training at local ranges.
I would buy the best training from the most highly respected trainers in the country. The odds of getting poor quality training and a metric ton of poor advice/information is very high if you are not a discerning consumer. Same goes for all gun information. Most FFL's are very unaware of the laws and their products. Most are trying only to sell you what they have.
Climbing, aviation and firearms have much in common in terms of training, currency, and the potential for immediate, disasterous consequences. Both require the highest quality training, ongoing recurrent training and practice, and correction of bad habits. Flying and shooting are highly perishable skills and complacency will get you killed.
Being able to do the Right Thing under the pressure of life-threatening circumstances is crucial and most people are not born with the ability to function well in those conditions. It must be ingrained via correct instruction, practice under pressure, and correction of erros.
As I said before, the Lightfighter, and M4Carbine forums are rich sources of educated, informed data espoused by highly competent and articulate professionals.
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MarkGrubb
climber
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Sep 19, 2012 - 04:43pm PT
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Apogee:
That is his company.
Very high quality training in Los Angeles at a reasonable cost.
His training respected by all levels of people in the gun community and is very well rounded. Lots of reviews on the Web.
Read what fear wrote about training. He is spot-on.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Sep 19, 2012 - 04:44pm PT
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Flying and shooting are highly perishable skills and complacency will get you killed.
;) climbing doesn't fall into theis category buddy?
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Sep 19, 2012 - 04:45pm PT
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Mark, I did check out Reitz's program, and fear's comments really are spot-on. These are precisely the kind of rational, realistic viewpoints I was hoping to find. Thanks to all.
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MarkGrubb
climber
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Sep 19, 2012 - 04:48pm PT
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Micaeld:
No doubt. :)
Then one wonders about all the drug/alcohol that is consumed by many climbers through time while (successfully) climbing. And all the folks on Supertopo who climb amazing routes "off-the-couch" and/or self-taught with very little training.
I would never fly or engage in gun activites with someone who was even mildly under the influence but have climbed well and safely with many who were.
This I find interesting and amazing.
But I digress.................
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Sep 19, 2012 - 04:52pm PT
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5.11x slab ain't gonna climb itself.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Sep 23, 2012 - 02:02am PT
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Sep 23, 2012 - 04:33am PT
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Most FFL's are very unaware of the laws and their products. Most are trying only to sell you what they have.
Wow. Where do you live, California?
Thankfully, I have yet to go to a gun shop that did not know the laws better than most cops and the majority of them are gunsmiths or at least what I would consider very knowledgeable.
I'm not talking about places like Turners, Big 5 or similar places that you might find in California.
Of course in Nevada and most other states, a gun shop that didn't know their sh#t, would never survive.
As for the legal threshold for justifiable use of deadly force, it varies from state to state, but...
That's it. Threats, robbing, etc. Those aren't reasons for self defense.
Someone could break in and say "I'LL KILL YOU IF YOU'RE IN HERE"
If they don't have a weapon, you're SOL.
If they're robbing you, open the door for them, help them down the steps. They can sue you if they hurt themselves on your property while stealing your property.
That is absolutely not true.
For example, even in California, If you hear a burglar in your house, and confront him with a gun...If he doesn't immediately flee, or comply, or if he makes any kind of move towards you or reaches for a weapon, you are justified in shooting him. The perp doesn't need to make any verbal threats or have any weapons. The threat of him physically assaulting you is enough.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 23, 2012 - 06:21pm PT
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When did Lobo move to Texas?
Shot a double amputee for threatening him with a pen?
I say that it is a "good" shoot.
After all, isn't the pen mightier than the sword?
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