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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Mar 21, 2011 - 12:19am PT
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Years ago a friend of Frank's from USF who had worked at Hunter's Point Naval base in San Francisco, told us that the navy had dumped many barrels of radioactive waste into the Pacific ocean and that they were guaranteed to last only 50 years before leaking.
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MH2
climber
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Mar 21, 2011 - 12:21am PT
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If I had to be in a disaster I'd wish I could have it in Japan. They are holding up admirably. The one good friend we have in Tokyo has said that the only difference for him, personally, is that he is busier than usual. I doubt that is the whole truth, though. Thanks, Jan, for the NYT Op Ed link.
In '67 I had a summer job at a nuclear fuel reprocessing plant. It was already a big question how to deal with nuclear waste and the West Valley plant had a lot of problems. Just one small picturesque example: guys would bring home tools that had been contaminated rather than throw them away. The story may finally have a good ending, though:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Valley_Reprocessing_Plant
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Mar 21, 2011 - 12:36am PT
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Mighty Hiker:
Re --Perhaps the giant ferocious bloodthirsty wolves that RokJox and Jennie fantasize about are real, but the result of native wolves mutating when exposed to radiation?
Sorry, but I don't think the new wolves are hanging out down in the radioactive sagebrush flats at the INL Nuke site. If they did: the guards would probably mistake them for disguised terrorists.
The wolves insatiable hunger seems to be a typical byproduct of the party mentality that results when Canadians move to warmer climates.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Mar 21, 2011 - 01:50am PT
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Coleman made their lantern mantels out of Thorium through the 90s...
As usual, Ed is correct. I had a Rad safety course in the ealry 90's and we used alpha detectors on Coleman lantern Mantles.
When delibertly taken risks run bad, somebody who made the decisions needs to pay for the mistakes. Its not like these were just mistakes, they weren't accidents, they were actions delibertly taken, and delibertly planned for. Yet the people making the decisions don't take part in the results if the results are bad. That represents a broken feedback loop, and as a design for getting good decisions it sucks as bad as a furnace that never shuts off. Like that damn reactor design. If your decision makers never die because of their bad decisions, they will remain functioning, alive to make more bad decisions, and will think little of doing so.
No Feedback makes for bad engineering and bad politics. Kill a couple politicians and a few billionaires for f*#king up, and you WILL get fewer f*#k-ups. No Lie.
Rokjox and others,
this was not a deisgn "flaw". People need to understand how engineers work. They are given criteria and Design Basis Events to work to. Without a Tsunami, this would not have been in the news. The Tsunami Wall was way shorter than it should have been. In other words, the designers designed the wall with certain assumptions that did not account for a wall of water nearly three stories tall. This is a Systematic Failure. The Agency that regulates Nukes in Japan, would not have licensed the facility (or at leat thats how it works in the US) if the Agency thought that a Large Wave could take out the EDG's.
At the Waste Treatment Plant in Hanford, our oversight agency is the DNFSB. They are very critical of every assumption, even questioning the USGS on Volcanic Event assumptions.
I actually agree with Rok on the part about holding Management responsible. If you through the BP exec into Jail without bail for the spill in the gulf (of course until the trial ) then there would be many fewer accidents. People tend to blame teh engineers. That is in most casses incorrect as they often do not have the last say.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Mar 21, 2011 - 01:56am PT
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Fritz,
it is amazing the things that our Government did with Hazardous, Toxic and Radioactive waste back in the day. Your pic doesnt even begin to show. And now, a huge amount of taxpayers money is being spent to clean up the sins of the past. It needs to be done and government agencies are much smarter about this.
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Bargainhunter
climber
Central California
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Mar 21, 2011 - 08:59am PT
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From MIT NSE Nuclear Information Hub
Status Update – 3/20/11 at 3:30 pm EDT re: Stabilisation at Fukushima Daiichi
"Despite contradictory comments by the US Nuclear Regulatory Commission to US politicians and media, most observers in nuclear industry and regulation consider the measures taken by Japanese authorities to be prudent..."
http://mitnse.com/2011/03/20/status-update-32011-at-330-pm-edt/
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Mar 21, 2011 - 09:22am PT
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and milk from cows 20 miles away contained lethal iodine-131 and caesium-137 Huh? If it's "lethal", how are they still alive to be producing milk?
Certainly sounds scarier than negligable 'tace amounts', though, huh?
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Gene
climber
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Mar 21, 2011 - 09:32am PT
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A lot of contradictory information still coming out still.
There have been some "Baghdad Bob" moments in this epic.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Mar 21, 2011 - 11:18am PT
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Adam- i thought I read there were levels 7 to 9 times the government limit found in spinach and milk? How is that negligible?
1. The word used was "lethal", which it is hardly.
2. Please, tell me what the "government limits" are for Cesium and Radioidine in spinach and milk.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Mar 21, 2011 - 12:43pm PT
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UPDATE AS OF 10:30 A.M. EDT, MONDAY, MARCH 21:
Fukushima Daiichi
Tokyo Electric Power Co. continued efforts on Monday to restore power to its reactors at Fukushima Daiichi as well as stabilize cooling in the used fuel pools of some reactors. Reactors 1, 2 and 3 are in stable condition and reactors 5 and 6 are stable and being cooled by systems powered by electricity that was restored over the weekend.
The Tokyo Fire Department sprayed cooling water into the reactor 3 used fuel pool for about 4.5 hours, ending early Monday morning. At reactor 4, Japan’s Self-Defense Force sprayed water into the pool for about two hours. Overall, 13 fire engines have been used in the spraying. Efforts to spray water into the used fuel pools at reactors 3 and 4 reactor buildings and used fuel pools was stopped on Monday while TEPCO assessed the effectiveness of these efforts.
Workers were evacuated from the area around reactors 2 and 3 Monday when smoke was observed coming from the secondary containment buildings.
Electricity is expected to be restored to both reactors 3 and 4 by March 23.
Radiation dose rates at monitoring posts are slightly higher than on past days. Rates at the plant site boundary range from 1 to 3 millirem per hour. Radiation dose rates in the area where fire trucks have been located are reported to be 2 to 3 rem per hour, with some isolated areas as high as 30 rem per hour.
Fukushima Daini
All reactors are in cold shutdown and are stable http://www.nei.org/newsandevents/information-on-the-japanese-earthquake-and-reactors-in-that-region/
Note - 1-3 mR/hr at the fence is significantly higher than normal, BUT it is pretty small, as 2 mR/hr* is the dose-rate at a boundary that a nonmonitered member of the public can be exposed when radiography (RT) is performed... I know, as that's what I've set the boundary at for a long time doing RT. In fact, if I only have a single 10 second exposure to make, I can have up to 720 mR/hr at the boundary, as a person could only pick up 2 mRem in that 10 seconds, as the limit is *actually 2 mRem in an 1 hour (isodose)... But we usually NEVER go above 50 mR/hr using isodose.
Also, while very high, 2-3 R/hr, is a common field that people work in during outages at nukes, they just can't work there long, to keep the dose down. There are even jobs which people are exposed to 30 R/hr, although rare, and they are very planned out with mock-ups prior to the work being done, to reduce time (dose), and there will be several people who will take turns to spread the dose out.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Mar 21, 2011 - 01:13pm PT
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Oh, and regarding the discussion a few days ago regarding electronics functioning in EXTREMELY high radiation fields...
Just today, we were discussing with one of our contractors who provides remote video equipment, some designed for very high radiation fields, whether or not he can image some specific areas of the Rx, and he does NOT think his equipment will hold up to the EXTREMELY high fields in that specific area for very long.
So, apparently, when we are talking about extremely intense fields, there is a limit that even electronics built specifically for high radiation fields can withstand.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Mar 21, 2011 - 01:43pm PT
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Years ago a friend of Frank's from USF who had worked at Hunter's Point Naval base in San Francisco, told us that the navy had dumped many barrels of radioactive waste into the Pacific ocean and that they were guaranteed to last only 50 years before leaking.
http://walrus.wr.usgs.gov/farallon/radwaste.html
Farallon Island Radioactive Waste Dump
"There is intense public and media interest in this issue, and we need to have the best information available when we respond to inquiries or participate in discussions on the issue of radioactive waste dumped near the Farallones."
--Barbara Boxer; United States Congress (D-California). June, 1990
Issue
More than 47,800 drums and other containers of low-level radioactive waste were dumped onto the ocean floor west of San Francisco between 1946 and 1970; many of these are in the Gulf of the Farallones National Marine Sanctuary.
Questions
Where are the drums?
Is it appropriate and safe to dispose of radioactive waste in the marine environment?
Some Answers
Although the drums were to be dumped at three specific sites, there are no drums at the exact location of the site covered by this study.
Preliminary maps show the location of many drums, but only 15 percent of the radioactive waste dump area has been mapped.
This information can be used to sample around the drums to determine if the radioactive material is leaking or otherwise affecting the environment.
Summary
Between 1946 and 1970, approximately 47,800 large barrels and other containers of radioactive waste were dumped in the ocean west of San Francisco. The containers were to be dumped at three designated sites, but they a litter sea floor area of at least 1,400 km2 known as the Farallon Island Radioactive Waste Dump.
The exact location of the containers and the potential hazard the containers pose to the environment are unknown.
The USGS developed computer techniques and contracted with private industry to enhance sidescan- sonar data--collected in cooperation with the Gulf of the Farallones National Marine Sanctuary--to detect objects as small as 55-gallon steel barrels while conducting regional sidescan-sonar surveys. Locations of probable 55-gallon containers derived from the enhanced sidescan sonar images were plotted on a map covering a 125-km2 area.
The U.S. Navy, the USGS, and the Gulf of the Farallones National Marine Sanctuary pooled their expertise and resources to verify the new computer enhancement techniques developed for detecting targets on sidescan sonar images the size of 55-gallon barrels.The acoustic intepretations were verified using the USN DSV (Deep Submergence Vehicle) Sea Cliff and the unmanned Advanced Tethered Vehicle (ATV).
Barrels and other physical features were found without fail where image enhancement had indicated they would be found.
Without maps as guides to probable barrel sites, previous attempts to locate the barrels using submersibles were like trying to find a needle in a haystack. In contrast, using the new acoustic maps to drive from one barrel site to the next, each Sea Cliff and ATV dive verified the predicted absence or presence of barrels.
The interagency cooperation among the USN, USGS, and Gulf of the Farallones National Marine Sanctuary has provided the technological, scientific, and practical expertise to develop a cost-effective and time-efficient method to locate the barrels of radioactive waste. This method can be used to locate containers of hazardous waste over a regional scale in other ocean areas such as Boston Harbor and the Kara Sea in the Arctic.
For additional information, contact Herman Karl
Phone: (650) 354-3084
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Mar 21, 2011 - 02:01pm PT
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So no pictures of the spent fuel pools or reactors can be taken due to the camera's being fried by gamma sleeting thru the electronics. Imagine a camera tied to a long stick being held up to an opening for a quick peek
has been thought of.
Wonder if any sort of communication gear can work near the hot sources
other than tin cans and string?
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Mar 21, 2011 - 05:29pm PT
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In which country Adam?
"Please, tell me what the "government limits are"
The word you used was minuscule Adam.
Shouldn't you know the limits already?
Oh wait- you're not a food inspector...my bad
The country in which you were referring to in your reply.
And I used the word negligable... "...negligable 'tace amounts'..."
You should know that, as you even quoted me, and got it right the first time:
Adam- i thought I read there were levels 7 to 9 times the government limit found in spinach and milk? How is that negligible?
1. The word used was "lethal", which it is hardly.
2. Please, tell me what the "government limits" are for Cesium and Radioidine in spinach and milk.
And, let's remember, that my repy was made taking issue with the word "lethal"...
As in, quoting again, "and milk from cows 20 miles away contained lethal iodine-131 and caesium-137"
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Mar 21, 2011 - 06:00pm PT
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rAdam,
Check out this table from a radiation page at Wiki:
It expresses the weighting factor (W) between grays and seiverts. So if you know, is it correct to interpret from this table that medium speed neutrons - specifically neutrons 100 keV – 2 MeV - are the most disruptive to living tissue?
Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sievert
EDIT to ADD
For example, for these neutrons:
.1 gray (20) = 2.0 sieverts
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Mar 21, 2011 - 06:05pm PT
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From this table, would it also be correct, generally speaking, to say that alpha particles, certain fission products and the aforementioned neutrons - in the range 100 keV – 2 MeV - are the most dangerous sorts of radiation if they were to be ranked?
.....
BTW, found this interesting:
Bananas are naturally radioactive - due to their potassium content.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_equivalent_dose
Food for thought:
(1) In the media: "Traces of radioactivity found in bananas!!"
(2) Bananas are radioactive enough to be detected by radiation sensors used to detect possible illegal smuggling of nuclear material at U.S. ports.
EDIT to ADD
(3) This might even be more interesting: Never knew what a micromort was til today!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromort
Heading into the backcountry to Temple Crag adds how many micromorts to a climber's portfolio? if the goal is to send Sun Ribbon Arete in a day?
Climbers beware-
Spending 10 hours on Sun Ribbon Arete adds 5 micromorts to a person's ledger!!
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Mar 21, 2011 - 07:16pm PT
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Alpha radiation is very dangerous if a source gets inside the body. It will rarely penetrate a sheet of paper...so won't go beyong outer skin layers.
Neutrons will go several hundred feet in air...can be shielded by hydrogen containing substances like water and paraffin.
Gamma rays can go great distances and are best shielded by heavy stuff like lead, steel, dense concrete etc...
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Mar 21, 2011 - 07:55pm PT
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It expresses the weighting factor (W) between grays and seiverts. So if you know, is it correct to interpret from this table that medium speed neutrons - specifically neutrons 100 keV – 2 MeV - are the most disruptive to living tissue?
I don't know.. I'm not a health physicist, but I can ask one tomorrow at work if I remember.
Hoever, I don't know of any significant neutron sources, here on Earth, that are not man made... Fission and fussion creates free neutrons.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Mar 21, 2011 - 08:07pm PT
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Alpha radiation is very dangerous if a source gets inside the body. It will rarely penetrate a sheet of paper...so won't go beyong outer skin layers. True... Although I wouldn't say 'really dangerous' as it depends on the source, as some have very shourt half-lives, therefore the *TEDE (Total Effective Dose Equivilant) would be small. In fact, radon decays by emitting alpha particles, and even it's short-lived daughters decay by alpha as well, yet the primary health hazard is the particles it decays into (namely lead), not the radiation from it (gamma or alpha).
*The sum of the deep-dose equivalent (for external exposures) and the committed effective dose equivalent (for internal exposures).
Neutrons will go several hundred feet in air...can be shielded by hydrogen containing substances like water and paraffin. True, but... They will travel much further than just 100's of feet. In fact, they will continue to travel until they are either absorbed or they decay, as I believe neutron by themselves only last about 10-15 minutes, until they decay into protons, via beta decay, in this case, giving off an electron and an anti-neutrino.
Gamma rays can go great distances and are best shielded by heavy stuff like lead, steel, dense concrete etc... True, and this also depends on the energy og the gamma ray, as higher MeV gammas are far more penetrating than less energetic ones.
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