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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Another quality Republican candidate goes down hard...The graffitti probably didn't really say Niggerhead , rather " Republican page boy sluts.."
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Lois wrote: Sounds like he may have learned a thing or two from LBJ
Lois wrote: If we took this kind of thinking to its logical conclusion, once any given president exercises poor judgment, then no one following him need ever be competent. Irrational.
Hpocrite Lois..what Perry does has nothing to LBJ.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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would someone explain what the fuss is over the fast and furious program, guns being sold to the cartel for the purpose of tracking them?
TGT says that it is a bad idea, but I don't understand why. From what I understand, someone came up with the idea that guns could be used to track the bad guys. I don't know how they planned to do it, but it would seem like tracking devices could be put in the weapons.
The nay sayers seem to be saying that this is bad, because now the bad guys will have guns and those guns will be used to kill the good guys. Which happened.
But to me this doesn't wash because the bad guys already have guns, and it would greatly surprise me if they didn't have the best weapons available because they are a huge cartel.
So if the bad guys already have guns, then what is so bad about selling them more in an effort to track the guns to find out where the bad guys hide out?
Anyone?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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PROVE that US guns are finding their way into Mexican cartel hands and thus further one of the favorite leftist causes which is gun control.
I heard that one. how funny. You guys are really out there. No lefty I know would do such a thing, or care. We know that guns get sold everywhere. I think you are being led by the nose by your leadership. Being fed crap so that you will remain constantly scared and polarized against liberals.
but whatever.
Anyone else have a notion?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Nonsense. The bad guys already have guns.
Anything else? Anyone? Or is that all that you have?
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Yet one more Republican Presidential candidate idea.
From the BBC
Texas Governor Rick Perry - who is seeking the Republican nomination for US president - has said he would consider sending American troops into Mexico to combat drug-related violence.
Mr Perry was speaking during a campaign appearance in New Hampshire.
"It may require our military in Mexico working in concert with them to kill these drug cartels and keep them off our border," he said.
Such a move would go far beyond current US involvement in Mexico's drugs war.
The suggestion is also likely to irritate Mexico's government over the sensitive issue, correspondents say.
This topic now open for spray
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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LEB wrote: No but he may have picked up a thing or two from him.
Perry is a big enough f*#k up on his own.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Bruce wrote: jesus freakin christ LEB start talking sense. What is your point?
Good luck with that. We have been waiting a long time.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Moosie - the problem with the fast and furious program is that it broke a sacred rule of the ATF - do no harm. Gun sellers notified the ATF when some pretty big Straw purchases were made. Someone made the decision to let it just keep happening in the hopes to find a bigger fish that the straw purchaser.
This is against what the ATF stands for.
And of course at least one of these guns were used to kill someone. This is absolutely not what ATF is about.
I have many friends who are ATF agents and they are furious about this. First because it goes against everything they believe in. Second, because they are being kept in the dark about the whole thing yet the public is treating ATF as a monolith as if all of them are bad. That's not the case by a large margin. Most agents and others knew nothing of this deal, and what they know now they are very angry about.
The agents I know speculate that someone high up in the ATF wanted some good press for them so they could get more attention at budget time. Well, they got the press (but not so good), and they will likely pay for this at budget time (not so good), and they believe those behind it won't be punished. They'd be at the front of the line to punish those who soiled their reputation.
I would hope that people who are as disgusted by it as the agents (and me) would keep in mind that this is the work of some dumb shits and not reflective of the ATF as a whole.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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To Crimpie's point, there's a White House generated whitepaper circulating right now that proposes disbanding ATF and rolling the functions into the FBI and DEA.
The timing of the proposal and the source is indeed curious.
No agency, no evidence. (or at least a lot easier to cover the paper trail)
I doubt this was just glory seeking by a high agency official. This was politically driven from at least Holder's office and more likely the politicos in the White House.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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I don't know Rox, the ATF agents I know are pretty hard working people. Maybe some bureaucrat somewhere isn't killing himself, but the agents I've met and worked with are fine people. I hope the people responsible for this fiasco are dealt with properly.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Thanks Crimpie, I had only heard the part about the tracking devices. I'm not certain rox is correct on how long they would last. Seemed reasonable to try and track these guys, since In my opinion they already have access to most of what they want, but if there were no tracking devices or if they didn't last long enough, then that should have been thought out better.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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True Moosie - the bad guys have tons of guns for sure already. Still, it is counter to what this agency is all about and what lots of men and women work really hard everyday to prevent. It's like finding a nurse in a hospital that is smothering patients who were going to die anyway. It is against everything they are trained to do.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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I understand that it is against what they trained to do, but if the tracking had worked, then it could have added some very important intel. And these guys do have access to anything they want. Maybe not everyone on street level, but the upper guys certainly do.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Yeah, who knows, maybe it would have worked out well. But it was a very big risk with major (i.e., deadly) consequences. Not a smart thing to do.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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I don't really see how it changed how deadly the consequences were. The bad guys already have powerful weapons and as smugglers with loads and loads of cash, could likely get any weapon they wanted. They are going to kill who they are going to kill. So nothing changed in that respect. It has just gotten bloodier because of the war and corruption in Mexico, not because of this tactic. They certainly already had automatic weapons.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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People died violent deaths as a direct result of these actions.
Nonsense. People died because the drug cartels are very dangerous and are in a war right now. The guns added no extra danger. The drug cartel already had all the access to guns it needed.
. Evil is evil.
That is hilarious coming from someone who doesn't believe in absolute truth.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Lois, you make no sense. I didn't say that the killings weren't evil. I just laugh because you make a case earlier, saying that there is no absolute truth, then you claim that "evil is evil", which sounds like an absolute truth. I couldn't care less what the drug cartel thinks is evil or not. I don't need them to tell me, nor would I accept what they believe. The killings were wrong, but that has nothing to do with whether the ATF sold them guns helped cause the killings. Those people already had guns. When cornered, they are going to fight. So if they already had powerful guns, then selling them more didn't really change anything, except create the chance to track them.
Here is what you said about absolute truth.
I suggest there is no "absolute truth."
So then the belief/truth that "Rape is bad" isn't an absolute? Sometime rape might be good? You are the one putting forth this belief. Not me. I have no problem with saying that rape is absolutely bad and that there is no time when it is good.
Edit: You treat the notion of "first do no harm" as though it is an absolute. Yet even doctors know that sometimes you have to do harm, to do good. Sometimes to save a life, you have to cut off the arm. Most folks would consider cutting off an arm as harmful, unless perhaps you are trying to save a life.
the cartels already have lots and lots of guns. Tracking them is extremely difficult and often extremely dangerous. I am willing to bet we have lost many informants and many undercover officers to the cartels.
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