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tonesfrommars
Trad climber
California
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Jul 19, 2011 - 02:37am PT
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Good luck PtPP,
Don't forget to track down the serial number of the engine in the airplane that was flying overhead when they topped out ;-P
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 19, 2011 - 02:58am PT
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Gotta admit, Pete, I'm pretty much just interested in the observations, perspectives, experiences, and opinions of people who have been on the route. Everyone else's rant says more about them than the route or the boys.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 19, 2011 - 03:16am PT
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The route is important, for sure, fundamental even. But it's only part of the story. The more compelling parts of the story is the way Richard and Mark were treated.
All you need to do is walk to the base with a pair of binoculars to see that the route isn't over-bolted. But why did nobody do this? Why was the response to them climbing it so severe and nasty?
And even more interesting, how and why did the character assasination continue for so long, or at least until 2005 when a few people here on McTopo decided to give those guys at least the benefit of the doubt?
And why do some of these attitudes persist even now? What am I missing? Is there something we don't know? And Healey above is absolutely right - the way the characters react says far more about them than the words they use.
What you guys seem to be overlooking, or forgetting perhaps, is that Mark and Richard have endured arguably the largest smear campaign in the history of climbing. These guys have been portrayed basically as criminals for the last quarter-century, and it was essentially undeserved, so far as I can see! The only other story that comes close is that of Caesar Maestri, but it's not a smear campaign if it's true - and all evidence supports that Maestri did knott reach the summit of Cerro Torre, but lied about doing so.
This isn't just a climb story, it's a people story. And we have assembled here the greatest cast of characters - heros, villains, and everyone in between - ever seen. Sorry, that sounds hackneyed, I am not at my best so late at night.
But man oh man oh man I wish I could share the stuff I learned today - holy frig, you would knott believe it! Bloody amazing. I'll do my best. Gotta "work" my sources a bit more. ;)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 19, 2011 - 03:47am PT
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Regardless of all the he said - she said minutiae and bad behavior surrounding WOS, I think it was a big catalyst in the 80's North American shift to sport climbing.
Really? Man, that seems like just an enormous stretch to me...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 19, 2011 - 05:11am PT
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Everyone has their own take on things I suppose, but to be honest I really can't go with you on this and I have a somewhat different take on it.
Pre-sport there was no option - you wanted to climb - you led on gear. My perception in the mid-70s was that about 5-10% of people were artisans with pro, another 35-40% or so were competent, and the rest were always nervous. My contention would be that there was a ready-made and heavily pent-up demand just waiting for sport climbing.
Yeah, you can claim it was all about the miracle and potential for 5.12 and above climbing and movement, but you'll excuse me if I can't help but suspect the out-of-the-gate popularity was way more about all those folks who were always nervous about leading on gear than about the potential for great advances in climbing.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 19, 2011 - 05:34am PT
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I think you're on to something, Joe
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Jul 19, 2011 - 07:22am PT
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This just keeps getting more and more absurd.
Defining moment of the era? Is this how history gets rewritten? Someone with a passionate personal cause simply sounding out all the rest?
There was a lot more going on in the 80's than this sideshow. Two guys risking 30' whippers onto bolts on less-than-vertical rock suddenly becoming more momentous than all the other wild endeavours going on at the time?
hmm...
I would recommend Paul Pritchard's Deep Play for insight into the 1980's climbing mind set, though this is for the British scene, he captures the era the best of any writer.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland
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Jul 19, 2011 - 08:28am PT
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Deuce, I don't think these people realize there is climbing outside of Yosemite.
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local1
climber
CH
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Jul 19, 2011 - 08:59am PT
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PtPP
"What you guys seem to be overlooking, or forgetting perhaps, is that Mark and Richard have endured arguably the largest smear campaign in the history of climbing. These guys have been portrayed basically as criminals for the last quarter-century, and it was essentially undeserved, so far as I can see! The only other story that comes close is that of Caesar Maestri, but it's not a smear campaign if it's true - and all evidence supports that Maestri did knott reach the summit of Cerro Torre, but lied about doing so"
There is a lot more of history like that. See for example the campaign about Claudio Corti and Stefano Longhi 1957 (Eigernordwand) - there was a more then just rumours about murder of two others - or the expedition to the Nanga Parbat 1970 where Messner lost his brother or Walter Bonatti on the K2 1954 etc. So I would be careful about saying, that this is a outstanding story - but I am not a publisher ;-) And. there is not just climbing in the Valley, u know? ;-)
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
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Jul 19, 2011 - 09:05am PT
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I'm just curious: Why has this thread become about PTPTP's personal agenda?
I thought it was about WOS?
NTTAWWI
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jul 19, 2011 - 10:27am PT
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Love the morning WoS fix . . .
Yeah, you can claim it was all about the miracle and potential for 5.12 and above climbing and movement, but you'll excuse me if I can't help but suspect the out-of-the-gate popularity was way more about all those folks who were always nervous about leading on gear than about the potential for great advances in climbing.
I'd have to disagree with the above based on my experiences as someone who started climbing in the early 90s in Colo Front Range. The "sport climbs" in existence around here all seemed to be very difficult, somewhat runout by modern standards, and not really approachable to newbs. The bolt-every-few-feet, really 5.7 but call it 5.10, stuff came later, at least around here.
Changing gears:
PTPP--I'd sort of like to be on your side in your feud with Matt, but anti-short-person stuff gets a little tiresome, at least to my 5' self. I've seen plenty of tall wimps, short baddasses, and vice versa, and not sure why you focus on someone's height in your feuding.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Jul 19, 2011 - 12:11pm PT
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Regardless of all the he said - she said minutiae and bad behavior surrounding WOS, I think it was a big catalyst in the 80's North American shift to sport climbing.
OK...
Perhaps there is some tiny thread connecting these.
Mark and Richard established a number of serious and difficult aid routes at the Riverside Quarry prior to the WOS FA. By all accounts, they were pretty accomplished at hard aid.
Many years after the area fell into obscurity, the Riverside Quarry became a popular sport climbing area (largely due to the efforts of Louie Anderson).
Is there a connection?
Not really.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jul 19, 2011 - 12:49pm PT
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It was about their faith, plain and simple.
If they would have been seen getting sh#t faced drunk in the mt. room bar every other night, or had some decent bud, or were lookin to score some then they would have been excepted with no questions asked. I spent years(off & on)in C4, and that's the bottom line, the primary issue...plain & simple.
From an outsiders perspective (I was 3 when WoS went up) this seems like a pretty concise summation.
Yes, they were Valley outsiders, but more importantly, they were weirdo-Christian sect Valley outsiders, which made whatever they were doing un-acceptable to many.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 19, 2011 - 01:13pm PT
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bergbryce
I was 3 when WoS went up
That means you have no clue ......
A lot of the anti rap bolt crowd was also non locals.
The biggest and most predominate valley anti rap bolter was Bachar.
The guy with the balls to go against him and start the revolution was Ron Kauk, a valley local.
There's a ton more.
Get a life people ......
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jul 19, 2011 - 01:37pm PT
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Thanks Couchmaster! You rock! You're welcome Kaitb, the pleasure is all mine!
Ammons pic almost had me spraying coffee on my monitor, worthy of a repost!
Lastly, Werner, thanks for all the wisdom over the years.
Werners and Merrys dog
ps, has anyone preordered the next book yet? I hear that the working title is "Wings Of Steel part 2 : THE SH#T CONTINUES"
LOL! thanks all! (PS, per Werners suggestion, lighten up everyone)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 19, 2011 - 05:01pm PT
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Yeah, you can claim it was all about the miracle and potential for 5.12 and above climbing and movement, but you'll excuse me if I can't help but suspect the out-of-the-gate popularity was way more about all those folks who were always nervous about leading on gear than about the potential for great advances in climbing. I'd have to disagree with the above based on my experiences as someone who started climbing in the early 90s in Colo Front Range. The "sport climbs" in existence around here all seemed to be very difficult, somewhat runout by modern standards, and not really approachable to newbs. The bolt-every-few-feet, really 5.7 but call it 5.10, stuff came later, at least around here.
I didn't say the initial rush was about noobs, but instant crossovers from trad where I said they were nervous, not pussies - if they were they wouldn't have been climbing at all back then, but they at least were still sucking it up, dealing, and getting out. That's the deal, prior to sport there was a relatively high bar to climbing and you either sucked it up and dealt with leading on gear or you were out of climbing almost before you started; it definitely wasn't for everyone. If the data were available I bet you could plot the growth of the demographic against the average bolt density / spacing and they'd lay over each other like a glove.
And WoS influencing the transition to sport in any way? I think you guys overestimate the Valley's influence. Eldo, the Gunks, NC, Smith, and any other number of places were microcosms unto themselves and WoS never rose above the level of an amusing sideshow at best. The French v. Smith locals, Bachar v. Kauk? Now those had people sitting up taking notice by comparison.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jul 19, 2011 - 05:14pm PT
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Healyjoe, are you talking about nervous pussies again? Its ok dude, its ok. I'm glad an authority on the subject can elaborate on this little known problem.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jul 19, 2011 - 06:10pm PT
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Hey Couch,
Do you know the person Werner is talking to in the second picture. Looks like an old friend of mine.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jul 19, 2011 - 06:51pm PT
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Joe is full of sh#t once again. The high bar of the good old days before spurt is just so much BS
In the good old days before spurt we had shoulder stands to get past those pesky bouldery cruxes, we had gobbs of easy routs where you could find most of the climbers weather it be Baxter Pinnacle, Chapple Pond Slab, High Exposure, The Flat Irons, standard rout on White Horse, Thin Air Old Man's rout, All those wiissner routs, etc Etc, Etc where you could find 95% of the climbers. A very few climbed harder routs.
Now thanks to feckin spurt climbers we have to pull the rope after every fall for our FA to count. back in the good old days you could lower from your high point and your partner could tie in and enjoy a TR to the high point gear, climb through and you still got the FFA. also thanks to feckin spurt climbers makeing eveyone train hard you have to wait in line on feckin 10's instead of just 5.5 and 5.6 like the good old days AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGG..
PS. When I say Joe is full of sh#t I am refering to his ultra rigid interpretation of trad climbing and underlying resentment of sport climbing.
It's all spurt climbers fault :)
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