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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 19, 2009 - 02:29am PT
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Well, Werner, there was alot of fossil life on this thread and some creation life.....but no still life. Actually, there was some really great, thought provoking dialogue. Peace, lynne
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 19, 2009 - 09:01am PT
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We all live in the cave of are own heads!
There is only one sky!
And the heavens declare the glory of the Lord
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 19, 2009 - 02:15pm PT
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In the field of Primate Evolution it would appear that for every fossil that comes along, the discoverers try to place that species right on the line that connects to modern day humans. They would rather that they discovery was not some evolutionary dead-end. They want to make the claim of a human ancestor.
There is powerful bias at work. This bias can make otherwise good scientists see things are are not there or sieze upon certain morphological traits while ignoring others.
The tree of primate evolution is no doubt enormously complex. With the very fragmentary snapshot that the fossil record gives us, its just plain hubris to come out and say that YOUR fossil is right on the human lineage and not off on some random branch.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 19, 2009 - 02:55pm PT
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Brian-
You are right to point out that human bias is sometimes involved in scientific research including the evaluation of fossils. After all, it takes a very special kind of person to toil for years in miserable conditions before finding an interesting fossil. The history of physical anthropology is replete with an unusual number of interesting characters. Of course they want to think that their find is something special and all those years of discomfort in the tropical sun were well spent.
You are also right that mistakes have been made in the past, usually from drawing too many conclusions from too little evidence. Not all of these misinterpretations have stemmed from wanting to put everything on the human line however, some suffered from the opposite problem.
All of the above are reasons for peer review. Academics are merciless with each other until they are satisfied that the correct interpretation has been arrived at. One builds a reputation for new discoveries but also for more precise and correct interpretations of old ones. The history of physical anthropology is also full of fierce disagreements over interpretations.
Through this process however, the parameters of the major fossil finds have been determined and it is really incorrect to say that it is impossible to know if something is on the direct human line or not. In part, we can be sure of this because each of these major categories overlaps the other in time and we have whole populations of fossils from these categories now, not just fragments. As I explained in a previous post, the major categories of Ardipithecus, Austrolopithecus, H. erectus, H. neanderthal, and H. sapiens are well known. It is only a few of the connectors between these groups that are still open to interpretation.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 19, 2009 - 05:08pm PT
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Jan, it is gracious of you to postulate/propose that Brian has acknowledged the concept of facts and logic...
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 05:12pm PT
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The soul exists.
Every living entity is an individual soul within the material body.
The soul has all the qualities but not the full quantity of the Supreme soul God.
We are not the body, but our covering the material body, is the vehicle we have entered and developed according to our consciousness.
Never does the driver of the car say I am a subaru, I am a Ford, etc. Still without the superior living soul, to get in and start the car it will never animate or move aside from all the obvious stupid examples that those wishing otherwise.
The proof exists of the soul by studying ourselves.
Studying dead bones and not life is waste of time. It is the indirect method. The direct method is go straight to life.
Life comes from life.
Dogs gnaw on bones .......
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 19, 2009 - 05:15pm PT
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Jaybro, you assume too much! The intent of my post was not to refute the validity of the Theory of Evolution, but to simply point out that scientist are people too, subject to the same pressures to succeed that we all are.
As Jan so ably pointed out, peer review should eventually result in an objective interpretation of each piece of evidence.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 19, 2009 - 05:17pm PT
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If you're soul-less, how can you be evil?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 19, 2009 - 05:21pm PT
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So Brian, now you admit you do refute logic, etc? just teasin'
Jan kinda already made the case for peer review..... What then, were you attempting to add?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 19, 2009 - 05:25pm PT
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fattrad, I just saw a close relative die in their home. I and one other person were the only ones there. For two hours, til the mortuary came, I gazed at a shell.
The life force was gone only the thing that encased it was left and that was rapidly changing ...... getting ready for the "from dust tho art to dust thou shalt return" stage.
There is more to a human than their body. Life force, soul, something is there. I do not believe "that something" just disappears into thin air at the time of death. That "something" made that person who they were......
My second close personal witness of death in less than 2 years. Live today everyone, no promise there will be a tomorrow. Love and help one another. Make life better for the people around you, even if they don't deserve it. Peace Always, lynne
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 19, 2009 - 05:27pm PT
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I was just pointing out that often conclusions go a lot further than they can be supported by the data. I believe that conclusions should be conservative.
Having said that, there are examples of great discoveries made on evidence as flimsy as a house of cards. The idea comes first and then the data is sought to support it.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 05:35pm PT
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Mighty Hiker -- "If you're soul-less, how can you be evil?"
Absolutely correct.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 19, 2009 - 05:54pm PT
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There is no evidence whatsoever of individual consciousness, or supreme consciousness, or any consciousness at all that does not depend on functioning biological processes.
We're like light bulbs. We burn, then we burn out or break, and we are done. Electricity still exists, sure, and they can always make new bulbs just like us. But for those bulbs to imagine that when their filament breaks, they're going to be magically transported to some great substation in the sky, or be reborn as a halogen if we were good enough, or whatever, well, hey, think what you like but there's no evidence for it. We are here for a very short time. This is not a test, it all we get. So play nice.
Same ethical conclusion, minus the fairy dust.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 05:57pm PT
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There is no evidence whatsoever of individual consciousness, or supreme consciousness, or any consciousness at all that does not depend on functioning biological processes.
Then you absolutely do not exist.
The real nature of the soul, which is spread all over the body.
Anyone can understand what is spread all over the body, it is consciousness.
Everyone is conscious of the pains and pleasures of the body in part or as a whole. This spreading of consciousness is limited within one's own body. The pains and pleasures of one body are unknown to another. Therefore, each and every body is the embodiment of an individual soul, and the symptom of the soul's presence is perceived as individual consciousness.
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 19, 2009 - 06:03pm PT
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We scientists are unable to measure anything approximating consciousness which persists after death. Therefore we don't have anything to say about life after death. Science doesn't say one way or the other, so you can believe as you wish.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 06:06pm PT
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When the soul is present in the body, there is consciousness all over the body, and as soon as the soul has passed from the body, there is no more consciousness.
This can be easily understood by any intelligent man.
Therefore consciousness is not a production of the combination of matter.
Your materialistic science is defective.
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 19, 2009 - 06:07pm PT
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As I said, if there is a soul that leaves the body, we scientists have no idea where it goes. We can't measure it.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 06:10pm PT
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Then you have to admit your materialistic science is defective.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 19, 2009 - 06:14pm PT
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Looking over the link of 'human' fossils that Ed posted, and I truly, in no way sarcastic, have to ask;
What, Is, a human being? Is homo v Pongo for the genus, accurate enough?
I have stared, eye to eye, with a gorilla, and knew I was interacting with, a man.
Also, kinda OT at the moment, but relevant to us all, from slightly upthread; "no promise there will be a tomorrow. Love and help one another".
Can't be said enough.....
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