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mdavid
Big Wall climber
CA, CO, TX
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Jan 21, 2009 - 09:43am PT
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amazing to me that you are using south africa as an example of a peaceful transition of power. You guys were joking right?
Why wouldn't you at least check into it before posting" Didn't happen did it? "
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8x2olm7Gkc&search=south%20africa%20genocide
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_farm_attacks
Since the new South African government came to power in 1994, 1 600 farmers (in excess of 2 000 by 2006) have been murdered, and there have been well in excess of 8 000 farm attacks. Some victims have been horribly tortured, and in many instances, nothing was stolen during the perpetration of the crime. (Since the SA government’s ascendance to power in May 1994, a farm murder has occurred on average once every second day, while there have been on average 77 farm attacks per month).
wrongo bongo apologist, IT DID HAPPEN, IT'S HAPPENING
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 21, 2009 - 09:53am PT
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Oh TGT you are such a tool go throw the ratchet.
Fuzzy math and no accreditation.
"As a result, most of the 1,300 Palestinian dead were Hamas personnel,"
So I guess you must believe that the nearly 700 dead children were carrying RPGs.
"Hamas claimed that Israeli bombs and troops did $1.9 billion worth of damage. It was probably closer to a few hundred million dollars."
Anyone with half a brain (which leaves you in the dark) could see from the pictures that vastly more than a few hundred million dollars in damage were done.
This disingenuous attempt at disinformation is par for the course for Israels propaganda machine. Which you clearly have your tongue firmly planted in the o-ring of.
This is the equivalent of me saying that all the dead Israelis were soldiers and that all the Gaza rockets did only a few thousand dollars of damage in Israel.
"If Israel was trying to get Hamas exposed as a bunch of tyrants, genocidal liars and blowhards, they seem to have succeeded,"
Only to a far lesser degree than Israel has been exposed as such to the rest of the world.
"a farm murder has occurred on average once every second day, while there have been on average 77 farm attacks per month)."
Help me out here since "new math" is not my strong suit.
I am sure you would agree that a murder would constitute an attack.
So one every second day and seventy seven a month would mean that a month in mdavidland would last 154 days.
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Jan 21, 2009 - 11:03am PT
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Or perhaps more than one murder was commited per attack.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 21, 2009 - 11:14am PT
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"Since the new South African government came to power in 1994, 1 600 farmers (in excess of 2 000 by 2006) have been murdered,"
I expect that you mean "white farmers." You say 2,0000 from 1994 to 2006. During this time how many blacks have been murdered?
South Africa has a high murder rate and some of the victims are white.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 21, 2009 - 11:56am PT
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2000 in 12 years is 166 each year. Hardly a blood bath.
By contrast in 1997 highway deaths in Colorado total 717. And that was a three year low. The population of Colorado is approximately 4,301,261. The population of South Africa is approximately 47,900,000 or more than ten times the population of Colorado.
You do the math 166 yearly deaths per 47.9 million people compared to 717 deaths per 4.3 million.
Clearly it is far more dangerous to drive in colorado than it is to be a white farmer in South Africa. As I stated before, hardly a blood bath after the end of Apartheid.
And not damaging to my argument in the least DaftRat.
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Jan 21, 2009 - 11:58am PT
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How many is *too many*?
One?
More than one?
Where is the line to be drawn?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 21, 2009 - 12:22pm PT
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What are you referring to Chaz?
Auto deaths?
South African deaths?
White deaths?
Black deaths?
Israeli deaths?
Palestinian deaths?
????
How many dead Palestian babies will it take for you to finally draw the line?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 21, 2009 - 12:34pm PT
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Chaz's post is funny in it's appearance of thoughtfulness but total lack thereof.
What do you really want to say Chaz? 28 Israeli rocket deaths in 6 years justifies killing many hundreds of Palestinian children (not to speak of adults) in 2 weeks, cause numbers don't matter. Once you kill one, you might as well kill all?
The relatively peaceful transition of South Africa was a miracle. Would you have proposed sticking with apartheid? How many were dying then? How could they have done it better?
PEace
karl
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 21, 2009 - 02:18pm PT
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OOOh more math. 28 deaths in six years equals .0127 deaths per day for Israelis.
Where as 1400 deaths in twentyone days equals 66.6 deaths per day for Palestinians in Gaza.
That seems fair doesn't it???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
How many dead Palestinian children will it take for some of you to acknowledge that Arabs are humans too?
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Jan 21, 2009 - 02:26pm PT
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You all have answered your own questions.
Consider it may not be a matter of a cumulative number so much as the persistent nature of the problem.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 21, 2009 - 02:34pm PT
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YES THEY DO DAFTRAT! Yes they do.
They have been repeatedly condemned for marching Palestinian boys in front of them at gun point when they perpetrate incursions into refugee camps.
Or does it not count because they are innocent Israelis and the boys are Palestinian terrorists?
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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Jan 21, 2009 - 02:40pm PT
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" the Israeli military doesn't hide behind the women and children."
israel' defense ministry is in downtown tel aviv
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 21, 2009 - 02:53pm PT
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Skip they don't need to the have Apache Gunships, F 16s, Tanks, warships submarines and drones. They can sit back comfy and warm and insolated from the reality of their actions while they rain down death and destruction. Then go home to a nice glass of Mad Dog 2020. Where else in Gaza can the resistance fighters be? It is all one gigantic civilian population area. Or are you really saying the Palestinians have no right to protect, defend and resist?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 21, 2009 - 03:40pm PT
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Fatty
Care to bother to deny Israel has researched Biological weapons?
Word has it, they even tried to make em specific to Arabs but I don't have a link
Peace
Karl
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 21, 2009 - 06:21pm PT
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Where were the huge firestorms that were supposed to result from white phosphorus use? Where are the thousands of burn victims? Either the Israelis did not use white phosphorus or it's not the "weapon of mass destruction" that some people have claimed it is.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 21, 2009 - 06:32pm PT
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http://www.mideastweb.org/log/archives/00000581.htm
Middle East Misinformation: How to believe what you want to believe
04/11/2007
Stalwart supporters of the Iraq war, the Iraq anti-War, the Palestinians and the Israelis may not like what I have to say here, but it has to be said. There is a vast industry in Middle East misinformation, which caters to the need of people to believe what they want to believe, and to believe it quite dogmatically, and exclude any other point of view.
With the help of this industry, the faithful of different causes create a virtual reality that supports their beliefs and excludes the possibility that they might be wrong. The result makes a lot of people quite happy, as ignorance is bliss. It also helps perpetuate the various conflicts in the Middle East by providing rationales for hate. It also makes it fairly hopeless to find solutions to problems in the Middle East, since in the absence of facts, it is impossible to understand the issues or find the best course of action.
Virtual realities are constructed by denying inconvenient facts and inventing others to replace them. Different accounts of the same reality allow you to "choose" what is happening. Shoddy journalists who invent facts and stringers who fake photos provide a good deal of material for partisans. A few industrious fellows like Robert Fisk and Uzi Mahnaimi probably invent a considerable portion of the "news" in the Middle East. Once the canards are out there, they develop a permanent following, regardless of subsequent disproofs. Robert Fisk wrote in the Independent that Israel used a "nuclear bomb" in Lebanon. Investigations by Lebanese and by the UN found no evidence to support Fisk's claim, but many still believe it. Uzi Mahnaimi periodically constructs a virtual Israeli attack on Iran, that will occur using magical weapons that Israel doesn't have, and perhaps some that nobody has. As far as anyone knows, these sensations exist only in his imagination. This past week, a "Washington source" and "Russian intelligence" created a rumor that the US was about to attack Iran. It was illogical and unlikely, but many believed it and it sent the price of oil soaring.
Uzi Manaimi's most infamous "coup" was the canard that Israel had invented a genetically tuned bio-weapon that could kill only Arabs. This science fiction nonsense was believed by supposedly educated people. They insisted that their degrees in political science or sociology gave them a license to belittle or ridicule anyone who pointed out the impossibility of the assertion, and did not think it necessary to consult a genetics textbook. Fox News, Debkafiles, Front Page Magazine and other such "sources" proliferate disinformation of the opposite flavor.
How is the US doing in Iraq? Iraq, like any situation with a lot of unknowns, is disinformation heaven. If you are an anti-War fan, you can point to a rash of suicide bombings. The Red Cross says the situation is getting worse. If you have the opposite opinion, then you can cite Fuad Ajami as a source. He says America is winning the war. In one journal you can read that "100,000" demonstrated against the US in Iraq, in another you can read that tens of thousands or so followers of extremist Moqtada Sadr demonstrated in Najaf. In yet another news source, the demonstration never happened at all. Take your pick. Most of these stories represent honest reporting, but advocates will pay attention only to one version or the other, depending on what they want to believe.
For many weeks, much of the world was convinced that Israel had killed 500 or more Palestinians in Jenin in April of 2002. Even after the claims were disproved, advocates and historians continue to quote this hoax as fact.
Who is at fault for Israeli Palestinian violence? If you want to ignore the Qassam rockets and the occasional suicide bomber who is caught, you can say that Israel is at fault, for constant raids in the West Bank and Gaza and for humiliating Palestinians at checkpoints. The Hamas "kept" the truce - with the help of the IDF. If you ignore the raids in Gaza and the West Bank and the checkpoints, then the Palestinians are at fault.
Most right wing Zionists never heard of any settler violence against Palestinians, or insist that it is the work of a few extremists. Supporters of the Palestinians insist that their violence is the work of extremists too. Nobody is willing to see the tacit or not so tacit support for senseless violence in their own society.
The Deir Yassin massacre of April 9, 1948 is also a case in point. The evidence that innocent civilians were killed there by fighters of the Irgun and Lehi dissidents is massive, and yet on the other hand, there is no evidence whatever that the massacre was planned by the organizations, or that that it was part of any plan by the Zionist organization or leadership. It apparently happened owing to the inexperience of fighters and their commanders. Nonetheless, every year at this time, there are denials by the advocates of one side, and assertions by the other that the massacre was part of any sinister Zionist "ethnic cleansing" plot. Believers can choose whichever version they prefer.
The latest example of this may be the rumor which was floated, that kidnapped BBC reporter Alan Johnston arranged his own kidnapping in Gaza, because he was about to be terminated by the BBC. BBC denied that Johnston was about to be terminated and ruled out the idea that he arranged his own kidnapping. It would have been easy enough to check that Johnston was not being terminated, but the story was so "good" that it was a shame to spoil it. The story exonerates Palestinians, and is therefore seized upon eagerly by true believers of that side.
Disinformation ranges from ordinary honest errors, to somewhat deliberately sloppy reporting, to outright fraud. The Reuters reporter who colored in smoke in photos of attacks on Beirut is a minor example of people improving the data. Fisk's mythical Israeli uranium bomb might be due to wishful thinking and an overactive imagination, to which we may also ascribe the would-be US attack on Iran and some other "events" that never happened. Mahnaimi's ethnobomb was a major effort in this direction. However much of the disinformation is generated on purpose. Journalists may be duped by staged funerals in Jenin, but someone set it up. Usually, if a story is faked, journalists have to make an effort in order not to detect the hoax. Busy activists may mail out thousands of copies of a fake interview with Ariel Sharon, without bothering to check the facts, but someone fabricated that interview from the original fiction by Amos Oz. Others may be spreading rumors about "anti-Semitism" in France from a different hoax e-mail, but someone started the hoax. The hoaxer and the those who spread the word and those who believe it without checking are all equally guilty.
A favorite ploy for neutralizing an inconvenient event is to blame it on the other side. "Our side would not do that, it doesn't make sense." Unfortunately not everything that happens makes sense, but it all happens. However, people insist that the Israeli Mossad or the FBI must be responsible for the bombings of 9-11 and those in London, since it "doesn't make sense" for Muslims to do it. Forensic evidence or confessions don't matter. Once you have found even the flimsiest pretext to believe as you please, it is enough. Likewise, Johnston could not have been kidnapped, because that doesn't make sense either. Therefore perhaps he arranged his own kidnapping or Israelis kidnapped him. The murder of Rafiq Hariri in Lebanon was also blamed on Israel, since it "didn't make sense" that Syria or her supporters would do it.
It is legitimate for different persons to have a different point of view. An Israeli soldier who "liberated" Jerusalem in 1967 surely has a different point of view from an Arab resident of Jerusalem whose cite was "conquered" in 1967. However, the deliberate manufacture and dissemination of untruths, and the tendency to ignore every fact that is inconvenient for a particular point of view, does not support different legitimate narratives, but different and dangerous virtual realities. These should not be legitimized as "narratives."
The journalistic practice of allowing op-eds to contradict known facts with impunity is a massive source of disinformation, but not the only source. "Historians" like Ilan Pappe, who assert that facts are for pedants, help shape it too. But none of these products could be sold without an audience of believers. Those who believe and disseminate hoax letters without checking do so because they want to believe it. Those who believe that Deir Yassin is located on a high ridge, and don't bother to check the geography of Jerusalem, do so because they want to believe it. Those who insisted, and continue to insist, on the reality of Israeli ethnobombs and uranium bombs in Lebanon, are satisfied customers of the hoaxers. These fibs supply a necessary commodity to those who believe them. It is the will to believe that keeps people attached to the media and media gurus who give them the materials to maintain their virtual reality.
Ami Isseroff
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 21, 2009 - 06:40pm PT
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BS Fattrad and YOU KNOW IT!
The videos are indisputable as to the indiscriminate use of WP. And scores of Gazan victims have radioactive posioning from DU.
DO NOT try to white wash this Jeff. Check some un biased sources for a change.
And since the primary construction material in Gaza firestorms are unlikely as the last time I checked concrete doesn't burn to well.
With the prevailing west to east wind patterns one probable consequence of the use of DU will be that Israel will end up poisoning themselves.
They will of course blame and hold Palestinians responsible for the radioactivity they will be breathing and eating for the next million years.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 21, 2009 - 07:19pm PT
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Uh,
It's called DEPLETED Uranium for a reason.
,and there's no evidence they used any.
It's an antiarmor round and it would be a complete waste to use it on hamas.
Lead is just as efficent.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 21, 2009 - 07:52pm PT
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There's no doubt WP was used, I think Israel admits it...you can see it in video footage.
It was, however, used as defined by the Int'l rules.
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