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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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wrong side of history
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Nohea
Trad climber
Living Outside the Statist Quo
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Let's be accurate here... Obama came out in favor of government sanction of same sex marriage. I don't think the government should sanction any marriage, we are all adults and each couple can find an officiant to any ceremony desired. Marriage is a social function, let's get the government out of social functions.
Just look at this thread to see how much angst the State creats by their involvement.
Aloha,
Will
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Chewybacca
Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
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It's really quite simple to keep gov out of marriage......don't buy a marriage license from the state. I've never brought government nor religion into my love life.
I'm OK with religious groups defining marriage for themselves, but (and it is a big but) Christians, Muslims, or any other religious group should not be allowed to define marriage for everyone. Nobody is trying to make same sex marriage mandatory, just an equal freedom.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 27, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
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A scientific study wired anti-gay people and tolerant people up to a machine to measure their sexual arousal and then showed them gay porn. The haters got way more turned on.
Still, we could always go back to the Bible definition of Marriage: Marry as many chicks as you like. Soloman (supposedly God's wise guy) had 700 wives.
Peace
Karl
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 27, 2012 - 02:43pm PT
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Carl,
Obviously your not familiar with King Soloman & his relationship to God. As you know, he was King David's son and heir to the thrown. When he became king, he prayed for wisdom, didn't pray for riches, long life, power, etc.,! God honored him with that. But, he drifted away from God and chased after everything power & money could buy. He could not fill his out of control lust (God didn't okay the 700 wives & 500 concubines, etc). The eventual result was, The Book of Eclessiates! He new that he totally blew it.
No where in the Bible, even in the OT does it encourage anyone in regards to polygamy or taking more than one wife.Look what happened to King David when he did. Resulted in a heep of trouble. Same with Abraham, he had only one wife up until he was almost 100. His wife (Sarai) encouraged him to take Hagai as a wife to foster a heir.
The culture was different then, Arabs, etc. had large harems and numerous wives and concubines. They were always offering or sending many to various kings. What could you give a king that he didn't already have? God certainly didn't approve of it, but it happened.
Besides, the vast majority of Kings (Hebrew) were evil. Why do think they killed all the OT prophets? Elijah was a wanted man!! Them taking multiple wives & concubines was just one of their faults.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Aug 27, 2012 - 02:50pm PT
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Yep, cultures can change. We've gone from 700 wives to 1. Now we go to equality for all orientations.
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 27, 2012 - 03:04pm PT
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Dave Kos -- Posting on this thread because this theme is all to common!
What a lame statement[s]!
Blatant Christian bashing.
You take one incident and turn it against all of christianity!
I know nothing of this particular church, and I suspect it is just your average church. "Virulently homophobic"??
Where's the proof.
Because the have the word "evangelical" in their name?
Evangelical simply means that they believe in evangelizing...telling others about the Good News of Jesus Christ. Which is eternal life. For anyone that is alive in the world today. Gay or straight, rich or poor. Thief, liar, murderer, etc.! Not many ask for it, they would prefer to bash those that have.
Perhaps they have made "bashing gays" their #1 priority in life. Sad, if that is true. Obviously this deviant found a place that he could hide as "a wolf in sheep's clothing"!
The only church i know of or heard of that would fit that description is that one "Baptist" church. Which is more of a cult than it is a church. And is more pleasing to Satan, certainly not God!
So you dig something like this up and put the blame on Christians, who have unfortunately had some deviant infiltrate them in the most hideous of ways. They do this in all walks of life to get to our youth. I recall a gym coach in Mammoth who had been molesting youth for years that was finally turned in.
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 27, 2012 - 03:47pm PT
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monolith -- Yep, cultures change.
Like I said Abraham had only one wife until he was almost 100. He was concerned about having a heir (Sarah was 85). Sarah suggested he take Hagai as a wife to conceive a heir. He had been promised a heir by God, blah, blah, blah! God did not approve of this. That whole situation turned bad, and it has had long lasting effects (the Arabs are direct descendants of Ishmael).
The point i am making is, Abraham is considered the father of Judaism, they did not follow his example nor Moses. And Moses only had one wife. Later, certain kings did take more than one wife. It usually caused much trouble, Davids own son tried to overthrow and kill him. Nowhere in the bible does it approve of anything but monogamy. Gods major reason for disaproval was because the Iraelites had taken on other cultures and their customs (some of the kings took multiple wives for instance/for the most part, no one else where) they also started worshiping their gods & sacrificing their own children to them, etc.!
You make it sound as if God/bible said this is okay, then did a 180, it didn't.
Regardless, it was a different time & culture. Yes, our culture will determine what it will, for better or for worse...time will tell! It okayed pornography & know there are over 350,,000 porn sites available by simply googling them at the topof the page you are on right now. The biggest (largest) audience for internet porn are the ages 10-15 y.o.! They are spending more time than all the age groups...dirty old men included. How will that effect our culture? I do not know. They have all kinds of stuff on those porn sites S&M, bondage, etc.!
Drugs weren't even part of the conversation when I was growing up. Sex was something that either waited for marriage or was with someone very special. If ya got pregnant ya got married, man did the right thing. Three of my best friends got married right out of high school secondary to that. Are still married today. Then came the big sexual & drug, etc, revolution. Everyone praises it today. BUT, there were hundreds of thousands fatherless children (& in some cases motherless also). And, do i even need to speak in regards how our nation & the world wound up in regards to drugs? That all started with my generation (actually the one before it ,ie, Ken Kesey, et al).
My point is, life/America is changing, for better or worse.
Dave Kos, Sorry bro, I kinda jumped the gun. I just wasn't sure about this one church & suspected the dood who had written the article had done so without fully checking into what the church was about. maybe they are gay bashing. that would generally mean that they have a specific agenda and are focusing on gays. Very sad if true. Pastors (or whatever) who do this generally get new converts and minipulate them. Not sure where all the bitterness & hate comes from. It will eventually end up in ruin. Perhaps their is some truth to it, but I would certainly not judge them so because of what has happened. Very sad, especially for the youth. This sort of thing happens everywhere. The church has been very aware of it and watching out for it for a long time. But,, sh#t happens!!!
Once again, SORRY, i obviously overreacted. it was mostly directed at the person who wrote that one article with the "Virulently homophobic" in it. It very well may be, but he didn't give any proof of this, and i therefore suspected otherwise, and that he was simply bashing a Christian church. And that he would do so no matter what Christian church he belonged to cuz it was simply Christian. I see this as bad as the other side of the coin (gay bashing)! it won't get us anywhere!
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Aug 27, 2012 - 08:41pm PT
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I admit to skipping all but the first few and last few posts in this thread... but there is still discussion of polygamy as an abuse of power. This is a pretty narrow view. Sure polygamy may often be a result of an imbalance of power, and that imbalance of power should be addressed.
But have folks discussed polyamory in general (multiple males/females with full or partial permutations of coupling)? I had a very very intelligent co-worker, and discussed his personal life in detail because I was very curious, and I found no fault with a polyamorous lifestyle, aside from our own parochial limitations in accepting non-traditional relationships and our own emotional maturity to act appropriately in such a relationship. If folks can get past the emotional feelings of jealousy or envy and work out issues as emotionally mature adults, it seems like it would be a better family environment for several reasons:
1. More financial stability from multiple income earners
2. More redundancy for children to find an emotionally calm and supportive adult at all times
3. Each adult can claim the space they need to deal with moments of anxiety or stress without everything coming unraveled. No worry about dinner un-prepared or missed pickups from school or other responsibilities dropped. This means each adult can remain in a healthier space.
4. More personalities to exercise different facets of yourself, to more fully realize your potential as a human being.
I can imagine other problems arising, such as A likes B and B likes C but A doesn't like C. If there are some ground rules that respect each individual's rights and establish the circumstances for including or excluding members from the polyamorous relationship, then it seems like all is fine with the setup. I suspect, much like eating pork, that old rules developed based on common sense at that time based on general wisdom at the time. For example, it's hard enough to make a relationship work with 2 people, and adding more people makes it more complicated, so such ban it to avoid headaches.
I would argue it is more complicated than living with roommates because more emotions are involved, but less complicated than living as adults with parents because there is an initial commitment to equality and peer-based relationships that more fairly and equitably establishes the rights and ground rules.
The only reason to have a special definition for marriage with multiple people would be to limit corporate liability for benefits. I see no other valid reason. And that reason could be solved by corporations simply stating "we support benefits for up to X number of spouses or significant others." Corporations would back republicans that fight against it, with the major ads framed from a christian religious perspective.
If we had government-sponsored health insurance, this whole issue would be side-stepped and we'd have no reason to impose faux morality that masks the corporate profit motive.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Prop 30 supporters. You suck too.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Yep, and by the time Anthony Kennedy has his say there is going to be a whole lot more Prop. 8 suckage going on.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Seems like a RANTING thread!
SO i bet soon some "unreligious" type will want to "marry" multiple
spouces. And the "Left" will scream FREEDOM!
OR what if i wanted to "marry" my dog? i'll bet if i barked loud enough
they would agree with this too!
BOOOWWWWWW!
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dirtbag
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 7, 2012 - 04:35pm PT
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Blublocr:
You suck.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Wait a sec, I must have missed something.
I voted for prop 8 right before I moved out of California. It passed, right?
Then, some Christians pushed a repeal through, right?
Now, it's obviously such a contentious issue that it's going to the Supreme Court.
I say hell yeah. Bring the god pushers, love is love. There is no degradation of society to worry about when women marry women or men marry men.
Anyone who disagrees simply needs to look to the current divorce rate.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Laugh now! But its com'in..
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
SLO, Ca
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The question is whether the law is constitutional, not whether it is right or wrong. At the very least there must be a "rational basis" for the law, i.e., some legitimate reason for the law.
That's an easy standard for things like polygamy and incestuous marriages. Evidence of the problems of both are easily identified.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Anthony McLeod Kennedy - swing vote and pro gay rights.
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