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nita
climber
chica from chico, I don't claim to be a daisy
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The Great Debate... is going to easily surpass,The Who in the Hell are you People thread.
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Same could be said for you Bob-
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Tradman, your unflattering picture of someone with a kooky looking rig aid climbing with a power drill has no relevance here.
And by Matt's logic (you cannot criticize it if you haven't climbed it) there should be exactly one post on this thread, since as I understand it one person has climbed this route to date?
Somewhere up thread there was some talk about art. Anyone here know anything about music? Stravinsky wrote some of the best music ever. He was futuristic. Way ahead of his time. He achieved his artistic greatness while working within a very strict code of self imposed limits. It was these boundaries, he said, which gave him true creative freedom. Without them he would have been lost.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dirtykenny wrote: Same could be said for you Bob-
You are right...but I also don't have a issue with the route and might be on of a handful on this tread capable of climbing the whole route.
Ksolem wrote: Tradman, your unflattering picture of someone with a kooky looking rig aid climbing with a power drill has no relevance here.
Explain why!
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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What is more important in your opinion: climbing as cleanly as possible or climbing with the best style possible?
Hypocrisy: short rap bolted lines for my reasons are ok, fixed ropes are ok, bat hooks are ok, pounding pins is ok, powerdrills in YV to fix anchors are ok, BUT a rap bolted line with careful consideration of all factors involved is shameful??
I'd like to hear some GOOD reasons why GU was done wrong, so we could apply those reasons/lessons to future climbs that might be done in a similar style but by parties that don't have the experience to put up a quality route. But as of yet I haven't heard any well reasoned arguments. Just a lot of inflexible ideolgy without reasons behind it.
The only possible drawback I can think of is that the adventure of a ground up FA was lost. Is that more important than putting up a quality route?
Since a ground up FA was not done that is still waiting, someone could go up and drill some 1/4" bolts on lead if they really wanted to and get the ground up FA, after aiding the bolt ladder in the middle of the route of course.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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"And by Matt's logic (you cannot criticize it if you haven't climbed it) there should be exactly one post on this thread, since as I understand it one person has climbed this route to date?"
not that it's a very big deal, but you took that out of context. i was saying that you cannot at this point make the argument that the slab pitchs are "over-bolted", and that you would at least have to hear it from someone who'd been there, if not see it for yourself, in order to make that claim.
i did't feel like i was going out on a limb w/ that one...
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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DR, none of us has climbed the route and we have yet to see a topo so, obviously we are all speculating on what the protection is like on the upper pitches. I tried to make that clear in my post, I guess I did not and I apologize if you felt that was a personal attack.
One of the problems when rappel bolting slab climbing on rappel, and I am not saying this was done on SFHD, is that, by its nature, slab climbing can be very inobvious which is one of the reasons it can be a mental exercise as well as a physical exercise. Having even the slightest knowledge of what's ahead can dramatically change how a route is climbed and protected.
When bolting on lead, unless you are climbing way under one's comfort level, the bolts tend to be more closely in line with where both the mentally and physically demanding climbing is located. Being scared on lead is a good thing because most of us stop and drill, if we can.
I am not making any accusations, but, for me, this is one very big reason why rappel bolting slab routes is kind of lame.
Bruce
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Bubba Ho-Tep
climber
Evergreen, CO
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Bob, As good as Birds of Fire is (and I have done it - surprise!), it was not done in the prevailing style of the area and that is exactly what this thread is about.
Those railing against Growing Up are using logic from condemning all rap bolting to condemning only the rap bolting on the SF of HD. It's the same outrage as the Birds of Fire debate, the rap bolting of routes in the Splatte and any number of other similar instances.
You have argued that there are other rap bolted routes in those areas and extended that argument to mean (at least this is what I read) that if one route has been rap bolted, the area is fair game. BUT, rap bolting is not the prevalent style of these areas- ground up is. Until such time as the majority of the routes are rap bolted, that will be the case.
I'm certainly not some anti-bolt nut case - rap bolt all you want in the sport climbing areas - I might even go climb some of the routes. I just think that there has to be a line drawn somewhere and, to me, Growing Up crosses that line, simply because it was a significant departure from the generally accepted style of the area. For others, like Coz, maybe this route signifies that the SF of HD is no longer his personal playground of terror - not to be climbed by others, just those with the stones to do so.
I'm guessing that Growing up gets a quick repeat - probably onsight and gets the conformation that it is a great and worthy route. I'm also guessing that subsequent parties to climb it will discover that it could have been bolted on lead - as a "death" route. The bottom line is that this route, like Barry Bonds, will always have that asterisk next to it. Some will view it as a killer line and some will view it as a travesty.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Thanks for clarifying, Bruce. I get more where you're coming from.
You said, "Being scared on lead is a good thing because most of us stop and drill, if we can."
I totally agree that being scared on lead is one of the core things about trad leading that we honor and want to protect. Leads me, like you, to "stop and drill, if we can."
We reluctantly concluded that the "if you can" part was starkly missing from all known routes on the central South Face to date. You can't. Not from stance. Not from hooks. Not often enough, anyway. Not ofen enough to keep from plunging this route too into what we considered the black hole of death routes. Not disrespecting those routes -- we're still in awe of them. But we were unwilling, personally, to climb such a route, or to leave behind such a route for others.
Why? One, it would not get done. Like the two routes next door don't get done. Kind of a waste of stellar stone.
Two, by leaving such a route behind, the karma would be on our heads for anyone who did try to follow it, and fell off, and came back down maimed or in a pine box.
Running it out is proud. But Coz, how do you feel about what your route did to Hank Caylor?
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elcap-pics
climber
Crestline CA
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Yo... we are going for 2000... crank it up!!
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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DR said,
Running it out is proud. But Coz, how do you feel about what your route did to Hank Caylor?
that is the frickin most lame ass thing you have said this whole time!
any climber going out must accept their own risk of what may happen.
many have said you have been speaking from the heart. i am an old timer and have read many of your stories, but i think this thing hurts you as it should.
and this statement!?! WTF man i may except this lame ass sh%% from a newb but from you?
dude you need some meds...
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Bob D posted:
" ...Dirtykenny wrote: Same could be said for you Bob-
You are right...but I also don't have a issue with the route and might be on of a handful on this tread capable of climbing the whole route. "
Jeez Bob. That's a pretty high horse there. I heard that rig is only 5.12...
" ...Ksolem wrote: Tradman, your unflattering picture of someone with a kooky looking rig aid climbing with a power drill has no relevance here.
Explain why! "
Because it shows a tactic which has no place on the SF of HD either legally or otherwise. The picture was posted as a justfication for rap bolting on a big wall. The guy is aid climbing with a power drill. My opinion is that if this tactic and or rap bolting were the only options the route should have been left for the future. But you are mistaken if you think I am about "gloom and doom" or "holding onto the past." Rather, I think we cannot predict what the future will hold.
Anyway we each have a right to our opnions and that's about the end of it for me...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"Running it out is proud. But Coz, how do you feel about what your route did to Hank Caylor? "
DR, I also feel compelled to question this one and to butcher a phrase from Ron and the ST gun lobby: Routes don't do anything to people, people do things to themselves. And Hank, god bless him, has no short resume in that particular regard. Do we ask the same question of what the route did to Dean Potter? This question represents exactly the inversion of responsibility inherent in the notions of 'development' and 'community service'. I can't help but believe this was your 'safety monitor' speaking quite loudly.
And now I'm curious - and Bob, feel free to jump in here - you're a guide of long standing and you (and Bob) actively promote growth in climbing and bringing all manner of folks into the fold. To my eyes that 'promotion' brings traditional ideas of 'fitness' into play. And bolting - sport or trad (I'm assuming here DR and Sean consider Growing Up to be top-down 'trad bolting') - then plays a pivotal role in the dance between fitness and risk by either diminishing risk to scale fitness down to 'normal' suburban folk (many bolts) or accentuating risk to scale fitness up to a select few bold climbers.
'Developers' manage the dial on the 'fitness control' as it were. Exactly how do you go about deciding where to set the dial for any given climb you are 'constructing'? And to what degree is rapping about better control over the setting of that dial? And I believe I here you saying hand as opposed to power drilling played a role here as well which then puts another dynamic into play for the 'developer', one of a balance between responsibility to future climbers vs. the level of toil one is prepared to commit to.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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A topo...
I believe this will show us all where the route is going.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Thanks, Simon - where'd that come from? The creator should get some credit for it.
To add to my lengthy post from last night, I don't think other climbers will look at what was done to create Growing Up, and see it as a precedent that gives carte blanche to rap bolting in the Valley, or on Half Dome. Quite the opposite - I suspect most climbers will see Growing Up as sui generis, a one off thing, at least as far as free climbing goes. Something that is accepted given the unique circumstances of its creation, but not tactics that are generally tolerated. There are precedents elsewhere in the Valley for such things - climbs that were created by leading climbers of the day, using techniques that weren't generally used or perhaps considered acceptable, but that were tolerated in the circumstances.
One example seems to be Wheat Thin - see http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=257921 It seems to have involved trundling and rap bolting.
The many climbs that were stripped of dirt and vegetation on rappel so that they could be protected (with nuts) and climbed are another example - I believe Outer Limits is one.
There are supposedly a few examples of deliberate pin scarring to create holds, and for all I know maybe some creative chipping.
No one seems to have concluded "Well, because Haan and Bridwell did what they did on Wheat Thin, I can do that sort of thing anywhere I want in the Valley", or anything of that sort. Quite the opposite. The general thinking seems to be that these things are exceptions that prove a rule - OK for community leaders to experiment with, but no more.
Of course, it may be that climbers are up to all sorts of "unethical" naughtiness in the Valley, and just keeping quiet about it - don't tell, don't ask. I hope not - if the route is that important to you, have the courage of your convictions, and tell others what you've done.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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I agree Hawkeye, "any climber going out must accept their own risk of what may happen." I do, every time I set foot on stone.
But I also have a responsibility for the character of a new route I leave behind. Growing Up has a balance of trad and beyond-trad, of reasonably protected with a bit runout. It has well-crafted fat bolts. I'm proud of the route.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Since Mighty asked, (and I should have included it) the "Evolvo" artwork (with one modification) was first done by B. H. Shadduck, PhD. It appears in his old text, "Jocko-Homo Heavenbound. The book formed the basis for Mark Mothersbaugh to create the group DEVO.
Just seemed so right, somehow.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Joe...the bolts should be in line with the route grade. A 5.9 bolted route should protect in a reasonable matter for a competent 5.9 leader.
Somewhat unfair if a 5.12 climber bolted a 5.9 route on rappel with the minimal amount of bolts for him to lead the climb.
The real deal for me is that both Sean and Doug are two very competent climbers who I trust did the right thing after they made the decision to finish the top pitches on rappel.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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"Two, by leaving such a route behind, the karma would be on our heads for anyone who did try to follow it, and fell off, and came back down maimed or in a pine box."
Serious?
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