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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Dec 19, 2014 - 01:25pm PT
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tvash, it's not hard at all for me to imagine life in Japan since I lived there for 30 years and just moved back to America less than a year ago.
The problem is one of semantics. Since the Japanese were never conquered until WWII, they were not subjected to colonialism and missionaries like the rest of Asia, where saying that Asians have no religion is a real sore point because generations of Christian missionaries defined 'true religion" as having one personal god, one holy book, and one correct doctrine which is not a characteristic of any Asian religion.
Of course western scholars have been arguing for ages about the religious aspects of Confucianism versus the philosophical issues. These arguments have often been extended to Taoism and Buddhism as well.
Shinto of all Japanese religions is the most ignored because the Japanese have outgrown the idea of individual nature gods, and especially because it became so entangled with politics in the lead up to WWII. Shinto to modern Japanese is almost like ISIS is to Sufis.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Dec 19, 2014 - 01:26pm PT
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That's a strawman argument, Ward. Cure all the ills? You can do better.
Substituting faith based with science based decisions would probably give us a better chance of scoring higher on the survival test, I'd wager.
And religion is the ONLY large institution still attempting to legitimize bigotry in the US nowadays. So getting rid of or reforming those religions who engage in such bigotry - fundy Christians, Catholics, and Mormons being on top of the list, would eliminate the money and power behind that widespread discrimination. hard that argue that wouldn't make this country a more pleasant, positive, and friendly place for everyone.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Dec 19, 2014 - 01:34pm PT
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Thank you Ward, I said something similar a couple of years ago and everyone jumped down my throat for being "prejudiced".
Then again, from a social science point of view, one could argue that the atheistic societies you are referring to were just using atheism in place of religion along with all the associated evils. Mao in particular was very clever about using traditional Chinese symbolism plus the hero worship and fanaticism of the uneducated young and the idea of one holy book - authored by himself of course.
So maybe the problem is not religion versus atheism but the propensity of human beings to become fanatical about cult like personalities and absolutist ideas.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Dec 19, 2014 - 01:38pm PT
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And fructose, I do sense you have mellowed in regard to the propagation of your views. Perhaps it is just an acknowledgement of the difficulty of the task? But good to see you are optimistic and looking forward in a positive manner.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Dec 19, 2014 - 01:38pm PT
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None of the Japanese philosophies you mentioned (all of which are in decline in modern Japan) involve deities, Jan. Kind of end of story with regards to theism in Japan, no? You threw out the standard 'but they worship their ancestors' line - then rescinded same by recognizing the rapid and near total collapse of Shintoism.
I'm just looking for consistency in argument here. No one can argue that Japan is a religious (syn. with theistic) society today with any credibility. It just ain't so. Little to no faith based belief in myth required with Taoism or Zen as far as I can tell. They are ways of going about things - not magical worlds and beings with amazing powers forever beyond our understanding.
Hence, my point - religion is not 'natural' to the point of being 'necessary', as irreligious societies like Japan prove. It's an optional use - one of many - of neural equipment that likely first evolved to do something else.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Dec 19, 2014 - 01:39pm PT
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And religion is the ONLY large institution still attempting to legitimize bigotry in the US nowadays. So getting rid of or reforming those religions who engage in such bigotry - fundy Christians, Catholics, and Mormons being on top of the list, would eliminate the money and power behind that widespread discrimination. hard that argue that wouldn't make this country a more pleasant, positive, and friendly place for everyone.
Wow talking about straw men . You immediately took an abrupt left turn in order to artificially place me on the defensive by somehow irrelevantly and illogically associating me or my posted argument with "bigotry" exercised by the your targeted Christian denominations.????
Why don't you take up my challenge and mount a credible defense of official atheism in the person of Joseph Stalin. I've already conceded that theocracy is a bad idea. I am not a Christian apologist, nor did my post advance the same.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Dec 19, 2014 - 01:44pm PT
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Nope. Never associated you with any religion. I have no idea what you're religious beliefs, or lack there of, are. Any association is yours and yours alone.
My 'targeted denominations' are supported by hard data - money flows into discriminatory policy campaigns (mainly initiatives), hospital ownership figures, and the religiously based discriminatory policies of said hospitals - all of which are in the public sphere. My strawmen are made of numbers. Big ones.
Stalin is often trotted out against atheists (Yes, I know its in jest - but some actually do it seriously) - the propelling logic being that all atheists are psychopathic tyrants. Similar to the common (religious) argument is that all gay men are pedophiles who are also into bestiality.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Dec 19, 2014 - 01:47pm PT
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I worship the "Monkey God" OKAY!
You mean other Americans are raising money to politically counter your avowed side,which is also raising evil money , in a political showdown??
Oh the humanity.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 19, 2014 - 01:50pm PT
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Hanuman ......
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 19, 2014 - 01:51pm PT
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I do sense you have mellowed in regard to the propagation of your views.
Well, my views, along with my interests and efforts in these areas, are more or less the same.
Insofar as I've "mellowed in re to the propagation" of them, I'd say it's primarily because my interests here have matured forum usage-wise. Once upon a time when forum participation was new, this cool new invention, it was fun to debate specific ideas in politics, religion and science back n forth - and esp among climbing strangers - and I suppose esp to see how far and deep we could take it, idea and influence-wise. I had never done that before, it was educational, eye-opening. Wow. Now though, it's changed, it's grown old - to try to debate these interesting subjects at any depth with the likes of a WB, dingy, blu, gob, LGo, klimmer is just a waste of time. The novelty's worn off.
What else is new? :)
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Dec 19, 2014 - 01:51pm PT
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That mfkr should try using a wine glass instead of a bowl sometime.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Dec 19, 2014 - 01:54pm PT
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tvash, I understand what you're saying now.
No one can argue that Japan is a religious (syn. with theistic) society today
I agree. They aren't now because they never were if that is your definition of religion. But really, from both a religious and sociological point of view, that is way too narrow a definition of religion. Theism is only one form and in most Asian thinking, a step along the way. Particularly in Japan, the contrast between Buddhism and the nature sprites of Shinto was great.
Another modern problem for Shinto is its current association with nationalism and the mafia. Many times in Okinawa we were subjected to slowly cruising busloads of mafia with blackened windows and imperial chrysanthemums painted on the front with martial music and WWII Japanese flags flying, while someone shouted over a loud speaker that we should all respect the emperor more. Just as obnoxious as the worst western evangelists. But at least they didn't ask us for money.
As for ancestor veneration, that existed even before Confucius in China and was brought to Japanese along with Confucian teachings. It is not Shinto in origin although mainlanders often pray to ancestors in front of a Shinto shrine. Others pray in front of a Buddhist shrine. In Okinawa, they pray in front of local shrines as they have a different creation myth than the mainland and really can't stand the Shinto support of the emperor after what they suffered in the war.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Dec 19, 2014 - 01:56pm PT
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Me and Hanuman tired of playing nice guy.
Tomorrow we raise political monies !!!
Stalin is often trotted out against atheists (Yes, I know its in jest - but some actually do it seriously) - the propelling logic being that all atheists are psychopathic tyrants. Similar to the common (religious) argument is that all gay men are pedophiles who are also into bestiality.
I'm have no interest in trotting out Stalin in order to defame atheists, per se, in an absurd attempt to imply that all atheists are psychopaths--- although most psychopaths are atheists, but not all. Psychopaths are notorious for eschewing any and all moral constraints ---and therefore would be expected to chose the more malleable ,situational and relativistic morality of atheism, if they can be said to be concerned with moral pretense at all. The morality of atheism is a morality better suited for a psychopath on the go . You know,so many people to hurt and so little time.
One could apply this description to Stalin . Since he operated within the dictates and constraints of an officially atheistic state , he could more effortlessly adopt the situational morality inherent in atheism and not be bothered with considering having to burn in eternal hell for his mortal sins .Christianity may not be morally superior to atheism but it is certainly far more unweildy and conscience-laden for the purposes of the up and coming psychopath on-the-go , eager to wield a form of massive state terrorism in order to make his mark on history.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Dec 19, 2014 - 02:02pm PT
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Not the Largo school, I realize - but the universal No Thing Thing that lies under it all is just another myth as far as I'm concerned.
-------
What ever made you think the "universal no-thing" is "my school," or my discovery or my anything. I don't argue that you think "it" (a thing) is a "myth," another thing, because you have not had the experiences that would orient you otherwise. Ergo you are always going to fashion no-thing as a thing, in this case a "myth' that I "believe," the purpose of which is for you to declare how wrong I am about it.
Tvash, we hear all of these arguments all the time in beginning workshops. It's the standard line of reasoning and you have no exclusive on it. It's a trance, but it's your and you are going with it. All the best on that.
But if you keep meditating, one day something will shake loose, and all this talk about myths and stuff will drop away. Then you might have something interesting to say on the subject. As is, you're like a Swede in Chad trying to correct the locals on their grammar, while understanding nothing of the local argot. This is not an "Alpha" statement anymore than someone, anyone who tells the grade schooler that one and one is not, in fact four. Strange as it seems, the grade schooler has the advantage over the wise old fart when it comes to meditation. It's called "beginner's mind," and it doesn't have all the freight and bilge water that the older folks tend to bring to the shooting match.
JL
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Dec 19, 2014 - 02:04pm PT
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Moving away from the non-argument that religion is natural (every human behavior is, destructive or not, is, by definition, natural)...
...would the world be worse off without religion?
Clearly - the answer is no, given Japan and many other countries who getting along just fine without religion.
Now, would the world be better off without religion?
Arguably - yes, given the huge number of bloody conflicts based on religious differences, and support bigotry gets from religion around the world.
That is not to say, of course, that non-religious nations are without bigotry, but their bigotry isn't funded and legitimized by powerful institutions. We also observe that such non-religious societies are distinctly less violent than their more religious counterparts.
Hmmmm
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Dec 19, 2014 - 02:07pm PT
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"Your" can also mean you're just another member. When I say 'my school' (UC Berkeley), I'm not implying I own or founded the place. Kinda weird assumption....
That my ideas are not the first of their kind in the history of man matters not at all to me. I certainly wouldn't expect them to be. Another weird assumption....
That I might wish to say something interesting about meditating is also not a goal. What could I possibly say that hasn't already been said over the past 3000 years? I do it for my own well being and nothing more. If my well being improves, the well being of the world around me might improve with it - standard karma stuff. A third weird assumption...
That 'beginners' in your practice would discuss my ideas is no surprise. I would expect beginning Christians to discuss atheism - also not a novel idea of mine.
All three assumptions indicate an alpha viewpoint. None actually address my views, however.
The idea that I'm on a conversion crusade is silly. I don't care what anyone else believes. It's a discussion. I don't expect anyone to adopt my beliefs.
The Swedish gradeschooler comments are just another form of denigration - your trademark JL. You assume that you occupy a higher spiritual plane from someone you've never met and about which you know nearly nothing - just as any fundy preacher worth his fire and brimstone assumes a moral superiority over any atheist. Such behaviors indicate that a self indulgent lack of wisdom continues to work its magic on ye.
The most alpha behavior here is conflating your subjective experience with fundamental underlying nature of reality. You'll have to forgive those of us who see such a statement as more the product of human desire for exclusivity, a bias towards faith, and the certainty of one's convictions than objective truth. Just guesses. I don't really know anything other than it sounds like one of many myths to me.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 19, 2014 - 02:53pm PT
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Such behaviors indicate that a self indulgent lack of wisdom continues to work its magic on ye.
:)
.....
Being a student of history I have never been convinced that the wholesale diminution of Abrahamic religions, even if such a thing were remotely possible, would be a cure for all that ails us in Western societies .
For all that ails us? Did you really mean "all"? Who says that? No one I know, no one I ever read or support.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Dec 19, 2014 - 03:02pm PT
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That is not to say, of course, that non-religious nations are without bigotry, but their bigotry isn't funded and legitimized by powerful institutions. We also observe that such non-religious societies are distinctly less violent than their more religious counterparts.
With all due respect this comment is juvenile in the extreme. The historical record shows us nothing of the sort. Even people with sparse historical knowledge knows this is silly nonsense.
It is so wrong that perhaps the exact opposite may be true.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 19, 2014 - 03:03pm PT
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Tvash -- "I don't care what anyone else believes. It's a discussion."
Calling someone a m'fker is your idea of a discussion.
One thing is for sure you have absolutely no idea at all what is myth and what reality, you just run your mouth irresponsible as you please.
This why you get yourself in trouble all the time and then give out your lame excuses as defensive posts claiming it's just a discussion.
You don't have clue what you're doing at times, you really don't.
You would not be defensive if you really knew what you meant.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Dec 19, 2014 - 03:07pm PT
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Don't get me wrong - I'm not attempting to deny the existence of the No Thing mental state, nor that it's a difficult place to get to.
But when the experientialist claims that this mental state is, in fact, tapping into underlying nature of the universe - the level below quarks or whatever....that's when the smoke alarm in my a*# starts to chirp.
The joke went over your head or something, Wern. If the Monkey God doesn't like being referred to as mfkr, he can swing by and talk to me about it.
Ward - Japan, the Euro nations, Canada - all more Godless than America - and all considerably less violent, both in terms of violent crime and warfare. Pretty compelling data, even for juveniles. Of course, correlation isn't causation - just saying that the oft stated idea that religion calms things way the f*#k down simply isn't true.
And the tirelessly trotted out example of Stalin is, of course, utter bullsh#t. Godlessness wasn't Russia's problem - being run as a totalitarian state by a psychopath was. And for the record - Hitler was a believer - he stated so many times. Now, there certainly aren't any religious totalitarian states out there...er...today...Nope, can't think of any.
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