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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Sep 11, 2012 - 07:41pm PT
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Sep 12, 2012 - 08:07pm PT
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Got a CCW appointment scheduled, so I went and bought a G19. :)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2012 - 09:15pm PT
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It was Muhammed Ali that said, "No Viet Cong ever called me nigger."
It cost him the title (but he won it back twice).
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Sep 19, 2012 - 02:49am PT
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Hey, gun....folk:
What do you know about this program? I'm genuinely curious.
http://www.frontsight.com/
If you don't approve, what program is better in your opinion? Why?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 19, 2012 - 09:08am PT
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Several of my friends have taken courses at Front Sight.
Their skills have all improved, but the courses are a bit too regimented with a "you gotta do it THIS way" attitude. Fine for people who are into drinking Kool Aid, but I have learned that there are often multiple methods to accomplish a task and it is best to know all and what the pros and cons are.
I am one of the few who straddle the fence on Glocks, and my one Springfield sucks so I am not attracted by SDs.
I probably would butt heads with them.
And watch out!
Once they have your contact info you will be besieged with course offers and, get this, high security condos in their Pahrump, NV compound.
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perswig
climber
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Sep 19, 2012 - 11:29am PT
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Yeah, but that dude's got an awesome porno mustache.
And he's a doctor.
Dale
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Sep 19, 2012 - 11:41am PT
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Yeah, that mustache kinda put me off, too. I'm always a little leery of training programs that are centered around an individual....too personality-driven.
Thanks for your view, Ron. Is there a similar-scope program you'd recommend?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 19, 2012 - 11:57am PT
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The best small arms CQB training in the world (which our own special forces have availed themselves of) can be had by any young jew who joins the Israeli military.
Hey,.. you asked for the best.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 19, 2012 - 12:02pm PT
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HaHaHaHaHaHa - he said Pahrump! If you drop yer wallet on the sidewalk in
Pahrump how far do you have to kick it before you can safely pick it up?
And condos in Pahrump? That is rich.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 19, 2012 - 12:08pm PT
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Pahrump has sidewalks?
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Sep 19, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
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Ummm...yeah. Israel.
How about stateside...esp. in the Southwest?
I should probably clarify the need- a group of people who are seeking quality training primarily for personal/home protection. Believe it or not, I'm something of the coordinator for this effort.
Cost is a factor, as is accessibility....though I'm sure some would travel and pay more for a very good program.
I'd like to point people towards a good resource, rather than just directing them to the local shooting ranges.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 19, 2012 - 12:10pm PT
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I knew you would call me on that, Ron.
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MarkGrubb
climber
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Sep 19, 2012 - 12:58pm PT
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Concur with Ron. FrontSight is a herd mentality and their techniques are dated. Many friends attend several times per year and their skills have improved. NEVER pay retail for their courses. 2 and 4-day course certificates are available for a few hunddred dollars. LIFETIME memberships have been, and probably will be sold in the future for $2-400. They allow you unlimited training for the rest of your life. Many believe FS to approximate a pyramid scheme in firearms training. Google will yield a lifetime of drama on FS
Scott Reitz (ITTS) in Los Angeles in highly recommended and is a reasonable deal.
Gunsite in N AZ is highly regarded but expensive and techniques may be dated.
Any trainers posting in the AAR's and course announcements on the Lightfighter forum are GTG. Lightfighter, M4Carbine, and 10-8 Forums are probably the most authoritative on the net with regards to firearms and antipersonnel shooting. Most of the others, especially GlockTalk, AR-15 and most of the others are classical Errornet.
Many of the best trainers are intinerant and will travel to you for a minimum size group.
It is important to clearly identify what you desire: A rounded self-defense program that incorporates firearms? Strictly gun handling / shooting? Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 19, 2012 - 01:26pm PT
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Not sure about the "intinerant", but I like the "errornet".
I get a lot of people asking me about guns and training.
There is no "best" gun. Different tools do different jobs well or poorly.
If people are reduced to using defensive fire it is often enough the case that they already failed in some element of a defensive plan.
So the best plan not only incorporates sufficient training with the appropriate tools, but also is individually tailored to exploit situation defensive advantages.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Sep 19, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
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The group are a bunch of homeowners who may want to develop or improve their gun handling and decision making for the purposes of home protection. The area has experienced an unusual spike in crime in the last year, and it has folks quite concerned. At least one person has attended a Front Sight program- she enjoyed it, but it's some distance, and I'm sure there's got to be other similar programs of equal or better quality. The southwest (esp. So. Cal.) would be preferred.
I think it would be generally best to consider many/most of them to be first-timers...many already own various weapons, but my sense is that they have little/no formal training, and would benefit from some basic instruction.
Most of the folks are middle-aged and older...weapon choice ought to consider their physical ability to handle it properly, and something that is less likely to result in accidental personal injury. Again, the context of the ideal training (and weapon) is primarily related to personal protection in & around the home & family, for those with little/no prior experience.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 19, 2012 - 02:25pm PT
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Improve lighting/ surveillance using conspicuous cameras.
Maintain a presence with neighborhood watch patrols
Network and include local cops
Before you even think about bolstering lethal force options.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Sep 19, 2012 - 02:28pm PT
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All of that is already well underway, Ron. Good advice, though.
There isn't any kind of overwhelming vigilante attitude with these folks...many are not interested in gun protection of any kind...
...but some of them are. There are some within this group who are well-intended with their gun recommendations, but their guidance seems...well...misguided. I'd like to add something useful and effective for those who need or want it.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Sep 19, 2012 - 02:50pm PT
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Clear out front yards so there aren't many places for people to hide. Bushess around the house are okay. Lots of trees and vegetation around the property are great hiding places.
Motion sensor lights. No brainer. They help you take in groceries late at night. They help you see what's outside if something sets it off.
//Cameras cause suspicion, and people are masked so they don't care. And they look tacky / doomsday prepperesque'.//
Bars and gates look tacky, but work. If they don't want to go that way,
Get Double Payne Windows. They're a bitch and a half to break. Took me 10 minutes of bashing with a steel pole at full force to even crack it. And it's extremely f*cking loud. And eco friendly!
Alarm systems. They work and they're fairly cheap.
If they're still scared,
Remington 870. Easy to shoot.
Easy to operate. Won't go kill the next door neighbor.
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MarkGrubb
climber
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Sep 19, 2012 - 03:04pm PT
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It would be difficult to go wrong with:
1) A quality 9mm hi capacity pistol. Glock 19's and the S&W M&P's fit almost everyone.
2) A first-quality AR-15 in .223. BCM, Colt, and Daniels Defense.
3) A pump action shotgun. Remington 870
Parts and accessories are ubiquitous for these guns and repairs are fairly easy. For example, a Glock Armorer certification is a 1-day class and the AR is 2 days.
Each gun should have multiple magazines a holster or sling, a weapon-mounted light, a basic parts kit, and quality ammo. A red dot sight such as an Aimpoint will mount on either long gun and dramatically improves both distance and close-range accuracy, especially for new and inexperienced shooters.
Having 2 (or more) examples of the same weapon is optimal.
Optimal ammunition for each platform is listed on the M4Carbine website in a "sticky" by "DocGKR".
I further agree with Ron; many things have gone badly if you need to deploy a gun. In aviation, it typically takes three errors and/or events in close succession to wreck and airplane. This is probably true for self defense as well. Procedures, layering, and redundancy are critical.
I have read that a clear-cut self-defense shooting in CA will cost in excess of $60K in bail and legal fees. You will be arrested and you will be in jail for a while.
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