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YesToCarrots

climber

Squamish, BC

Jun 12, 2012 - 05:29pm PT

In response to bearbreeder:
Yes, I'd be concerned about people and dogs doing their business close to Olesen Creek, but at the foot of the Chief trail there are sections that simply can't avoid flanking the creek (there's a wall of rock on the other side). One of these sections is the one with the BC Parks sign. Fortunately, further upstream the trail veers away from the creek so the problem solves itself.
Mighty Hiker:
I agree. If there isn't a well-developed network of trails waiting for hikers and bikers at the top of Habrich, I don't see how the gondola is attractive even to them. It's just a dead-end stop at a mediocre elevation compared to Whistler, and a non-existent infrastructure compared to Grouse.

hamish f

Social climber

squamish

Jun 12, 2012 - 05:52pm PT

Oh Boy. Where's my cereal bowl.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Jun 12, 2012 - 06:02pm PT

We're now up to 858 confirmed signatures, not including those from today. That combines those from the e-petition, FaceBook, and paper petitions, with duplicates weeded out. A good effort, considering we've had only a month or so.

E-petition: http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/squamishchief/

FOSC FaceBook page: http://www.facebook.com/FriendsoftheSquamishChief

106 identify themselves as living in Squamish and area, about 15% of those who provide a location. Many of the signers are climbers and hikers, which further underscores the failure to inform existing users of the proposal, and seek their input.

The petitions to date, including the summary, will be sent to the Minister tomorrow, and there'll be a meeting next week. Notwithstanding the press release printed in the Squamish paper last week, there is no park use permit, and that is a key step in the process.

Hoser

climber

vancouver

Jun 12, 2012 - 06:28pm PT

ya it just magically goes into a non existant sewer pipe and it goes away...

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Jun 12, 2012 - 06:56pm PT

The District's website says that there were 12,077 eligible voters in the November 2011 election. 4,663 actually voted, or 38.6%.

The winning candidate for mayor got 2,283 votes, the other viable candidate 2,104.

106 votes is therefore of some significance.

http://www.squamish.ca/downloads/election-results

hamish f

Social climber

squamish

Jun 12, 2012 - 07:16pm PT

How, exactly? Two and a half months and you're at slightly over 100? Think how many anti-smart-meter votes could've been had in that ten weeks.

I'd be willing to bet there will always be at least 1% of the registered voters who don't agree, regardless of the topic de jour. Actually I might peg it much higher. Imagine if 99% of the voters thought the same way; sorry, wrong planet.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Jun 12, 2012 - 07:27pm PT

106 out of 4,663 voters is about 2.3%, which in most democracies is significant.

The difference between the first and second place mayoral candidates wasn't much more than 100. By the next election in 2014, the voters may be looking for someone to blame for the gondola disaster/boondoggle, even a supposedly pro-development council. It could certainly be a factor.

As for numbers - nearly 1,000 after not much more than a month of active petitioning is respectable. There are also supporting organizations, which have written or are expressing their concerns in other ways. Some are of considerably greater stature than FOSC, and have grave concerns with regard to the process. The number of signers simply indicates that there is public interest in the issue.

hamish f

Social climber

squamish

Jun 12, 2012 - 07:31pm PT

O.K., fair enough. Just a little hard to stomach 0.8% as substantial. I'm sticking with my 90/10 for/against so you've still got some autographs coming your way.
Nice work Anders.

Tricouni

Mountain climber

Vancouver

Jun 12, 2012 - 08:03pm PT

I just want to remind people that it's a provincial park we are dealing with here, not a regional district or municipal park. As such, the issue concerns all B.C. residents, not just those in Squamish.

hamish f

Social climber

squamish

Jun 13, 2012 - 10:07am PT

M.H., you can't put the 106 over 4663 without confirming all of your 106 voted last time around. What happens with one number has to happen with the other. I think that's grade 8 math.
I'm sorry for being so picky. :)

I still believe the highest percentage of opposed would reside in the Squamish area. I can't see Prince George residents getting too upset about a private tram venture down in the lower mainland.
Anders's numbers possibly back this up as his support increases by a factor of only about ten as he slides down the hwy from Squish to Van., yet the Big Smoke houses approx. 100 times the population of Squampton.

Ghost

climber

A long way from where I started

Jun 13, 2012 - 10:55am PT

Glenns' point, which I agree with, is as we know, "should land be removed from a class A Provincial Park?"

True, but in this case the Provincial Park happens to be effectively in a small city. Does this alter the idea of all in the province having an equal voice? I don't know, but perhaps the answer to the question "Should land be removed from a class A Provincial Park?" might not necessarily always be "No!"

Tricouni

Mountain climber

Vancouver

Jun 13, 2012 - 11:45am PT

rue, but in this case the Provincial Park happens to be effectively in a small city. Does this alter the idea of all in the province having an equal voice? I don't know, but perhaps the answer to the question "Should land be removed from a class A Provincial Park?" might not necessarily always be "No!"

Of course it might not always be "No." MH never said otherwise, but his is asking that Parks follow the established, due process, to make sure that land-removal is done carefully. It should be harder to get land out of the park than into a park. It shouldn't be a popularity contest: who can sign up the most "voters."

Ghost

climber

A long way from where I started

Jun 13, 2012 - 12:54pm PT

I certainly agree with the "it should be harder to get land out of a park than into a park" part. And I've said several times in this thread that I think any land that is removed should be counterbalanced by land added elsewhere.

Also agree that it shouldn't be a popularity contest. It should be a decision made by rational minds with the best interest of the citizens of the province as its basic guideline. Unfortunately, we're dealing with humans, all of whom have personal agendas, so the theoretical best process isn't likely to happen. And I don't have any answer for what the best way to handle it is. As you say, signing up "voters" (as Anders is doing) turns it into a sort of popularity contest, but what is the alternative?

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Jun 13, 2012 - 01:07pm PT

As I've said several times upthread - if anyone was listening - a petition doesn't decide anything, and is only one factor in these situations. It never hurts in a democracy to demonstrate that there is support for your views, but except for elections and referendums, isn't usually decisive. It simply indicates that there is public concern about an issue. Just as letters and e-mails do, and letters and support from other groups.

In this case, the process is badly flawed - according to the govermemnt's own policy, that is to say the law. (The merits and demerits of the proposal really haven't been examined, and can't be without a proper public process.) So there's a solid case, with respectable public support. The government must now decide what to do.

Todd Eastman

climber

Bellingham, WA

Jun 13, 2012 - 02:11pm PT

With the land removal, a precedent is set. What is then to keep other proposals from removing land from other BC Class A Parks with a similar lack of process that this gondola project is apparently doing?

Yes, the Chief is safe for now, but exactly what degree of protection will it receive in a future altered by the precedent currently being set within BC's administrative and legislative branches?

While some may oppose the gondola for resource impacts or a violation of nature, my issue with this project is with the ability of a small group of investors being able to avoid a clear and open public process that gives the public an opportunity to comment and perhaps shape the outcome of the project.

Ghost

climber

A long way from where I started

Jun 13, 2012 - 02:51pm PT

As I've said several times upthread - if anyone was listening - a petition doesn't decide anything, and is only one factor in these situations.

I wasn't dissing your petition idea. Far from it. Absent a perfect decision-making process, I think it is important to get some idea of what people think, and a petition is one way -- albeit a far from precise one -- to do that.

Tricouni

Mountain climber

Vancouver

Jun 13, 2012 - 03:22pm PT

I've signed many petitions, including the anti-gondola one.

Petitions, letters, demonstrations, voting, and the like are small ways of making one's wishes known. Collectively, they sometimes work. What else is there to do if one doesn't like a particular direction a government is going?