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CrackAddict
Trad climber
Joshua Tree
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Sep 29, 2011 - 02:08pm PT
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You can't fix it if you don't understand it.
Why is Obama spending so much money? Do you know or do you jump in and just say.."All Obama wants to do is spend spend spend"?
Crackaddict says Obama is on a path to double our debt. He glosses over the fact that Reagan tripled our debt.
Yet Obama is hated and Reagan is a hero.
Obama knows we need to raise our taxes. Reagan did it many times.
Yet Obama is hated and Reagan is a hero.
Do you understand any of this?
Tripling 0.9 Billion in debt is not as big a problem as doubling 10 Trillion in debt. Do you care if your wife triples your credit card debt of $100 more than if she doubles it at $1000? Get a calculator and then tell me.
Reagan and Bush added a lot to the debt, nobody should celebrate that. At least Reagan turned the country around economically though, what are we getting from the Bush/Obama debt?
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apogee
climber
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Sep 29, 2011 - 02:16pm PT
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nice snag of the '666', evil one.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Sep 29, 2011 - 02:17pm PT
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Tripling 0.9 Billion in debt is not as big a problem as doubling 10 Trillion in debt. Do you care if your wife triples your credit card debt of $100 more than if she doubles it at $1000? Get a calculator and then tell me.
Hey Joe, I thought you said this crack dude was smart. How is comparing 1980s amounts of money to 2012 amounts of money smart?
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apogee
climber
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Sep 29, 2011 - 02:19pm PT
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"There is nobody in this country who got rich on his own. Nobody. You built a factory out there—good for you.
"But I want to be clear. You moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for. You hired workers that the rest of us paid to educate...Part of the underlying social contract is you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along."
Elizabeth Warren
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Sep 29, 2011 - 02:20pm PT
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Again, please demonstrate for the class how a single-payer system equates to government OWNING the means of PRODUCTION. d'OH!
But please don't try to confuse the wing nuts with facts and logic. It just makes them feel more insecure and therefore more rabid.
Besides, those executives making $multi-million salaries might have to look for another job that will give them Rolls Royce health care plans. They sure won't want to work for the Fed Gov't doing the same job for less than $200K/year.
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CrackAddict
Trad climber
Joshua Tree
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Sep 29, 2011 - 02:20pm PT
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Second, your assumptions are laughable. Obama got the presidency at the crux of the worst financial crisis since the great depression. Bush had already been forced into nearly a trillion dollar stimulus if you remember!!! Obama was merely rolling with what was already the desperate solution and at least he had better controls on money being paid back.
Face facts, Reagan was clearly the beginning of the huge deficit spending trend that has taken us to where we are today. Charts posted on this thread within a week have shown, since Carter onwards, it's the GOP presidents who have most dramatically increased the debt. It's a plain enough statistic. Why do you guys pretend otherwise. Why will none of you address this simple fact?
Reagan tripled the Debt and Obama has only increased it 23% despite the major crisis!
First of all, the notion of debt multiples here is silly. Let me remind you that Washington increased our debt infinite times!!
We should be talking about the inflation adjusted amounts that each president increased the debt by, this argument is more semantic than informative.
At any rate, Obama may have inherited an economic mess but that does not mean he should have doubled down on government spending, this was a very foolish thing to do. Now we have a lot more debt and less capability to ever pay it back. Reagan made structural changes that brought growth back - Obama should have learned that lesson.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Sep 29, 2011 - 02:34pm PT
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Crack, please get specific with your allegations of current administration "spending" versus the previous "fiscally conservative" Republican administration.
Understand the variables of the additional tax CUTS that Obama has signed into law on top of Bush's tax cuts, and reconcile those with the Republican mantra that that those exact "tax cuts", and not spending, are the key to economic growth.
"Spending" is by constitutional law first originated in the House, under Republican control for nine months now, and they are doing a fine job of "spending".
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Sep 29, 2011 - 02:38pm PT
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Jeff, explain more specifically how Medicare for those over 65 is "socialism".
Using of course, the accepted definition of socialism as ownership of the means of production.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 29, 2011 - 02:50pm PT
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Crack wrote
Tripling 0.9 Billion in debt is not as big a problem as doubling 10 Trillion in debt. Do you care if your wife triples your credit card debt of $100 more than if she doubles it at $1000? Get a calculator and then tell me.
I see you've selectively abandoned your inflation adjusted awareness and done little to prove Obama will double a 10 trillion dollar debt when he's only raised it 23% in response to a severe crisis that everyone said demanded action.
Lois, It DOES matter who did what in the past because the statistics show the certain parties act consistently in a manner. Sure they pay lip service to their alleged ideas but don't do them. The GOP has consistently increased the deficit and even raised taxes when they said they wouldn't (Remember "Read my lips, no new taxes")
The main difference in that the GOP likes to spend money killing people and building weapons, much of which gets wasted overseas instead of building our country
Peace
Karl
PS, it's sorta like a day care center where they put up a sign, "Our philosophy "Education, Cooperation, and Discipline" but then molest the kids. It matters what you've DONE!
But both parties are sell outs
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Sep 29, 2011 - 02:54pm PT
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Slippery Slope is a childish notion.
It's like saying if you smoke a reefer at age 15, then you WILL become a heroin addict.
Projecting Slippery Slopes comes from a mind filled with fear, and fear comes from ignorance, the very core of modern day "conservatism": FEAR
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Sep 29, 2011 - 03:27pm PT
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I cannot provide you with the empirical evidence
The evil one
CORRECT! Give little Jeffrey a gold star for admission that his bogeyman under the bed paranoid delusional fantasy has no grounding in reality or facts.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Sep 29, 2011 - 03:32pm PT
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Jeff, the "problem" with the slippery slope contention is that it is not "dynamic"
It is not "real time", but instead is a tired old "conventional" projection.
In other words, Slippery Slope is merely an attempt to use simplistic, surface level logic to explain a complex, and unknown, future.
Far better to dig much deeper, in real time.
But that would be far too much for your simplistic, and very conventional, intellect to manage.
So best for you to stick with well worn GOP fear dominated Talking Points.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 29, 2011 - 03:35pm PT
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One thing that just bugs me is all this talk about how we have to cut spending from the GOP but the only finger they can point to is domestic programs aimed at the poor or elderly. Of course that money get's either spend immediately by those groups or goes to health and service providers creating american jobs and stimulating the economy.
Either that or they cry about Solyndra as if it were an isolated tragedy of government corruption that needed to be screamed about like Obamas terrorist preacher.
Why no outcry from those same people about insane waste in our wars and military budget. Why? Are we really at such risk from terrorists in impoverished countries that we need to screw the poor and old to still lose to them?
Solyndra cost a 500 million dollars, which still got spent in this country but the Afghan War alone cost 300 MILLION DOLLARS A DAY!! What do we get from that?
Our own intel services say there's only 100 Al Queda members still in Afghanistan. There's so much heartache on this forum about 23 million dollars per clean energy job by some calculation but no worry about 3 MILLION DOLLARS A DAY PER ALQUEDA MEMBER IN AFGHANISTAN! Thats around a billion a year per terrorist!
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gNQ3JbWwd6t-PzkuECkRJvsAlNkA
Where are your values? GOP proposes cuts in heating oil to the poor and grants for education but no war profiteering concerns at all
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2011/09/29-6
Peace
Karl
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apogee
climber
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Sep 29, 2011 - 03:43pm PT
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"On occasion, slippery slopes come to fruition."
On occasion, asteroids hit the planet earth. Why don't the Repugs use that rationale to justify the building of 10 mile deep concrete lined homes all across the earth?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 29, 2011 - 03:43pm PT
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LEB
Be that as it may, Karl, the bottom line still comes to who (not which party) is going to correct the mess
Sadly, it IS a party thing. These presidents are controlled by their parties to some degree and constrained by the congress and senate, and who donates to the party.
Peace
karl
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Sep 29, 2011 - 03:44pm PT
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. Why is less important to me than that it did not get done and that it is getting worse. You and John Moosie can sit around and analyze and speculate about this, that and the other thing until the cows come home. Me? I want solutions and three years was more than enough time to get things going in the right direction. He did not do that. My respons ....."next!"
You can't come up with a solution, unless and until you understand the problem. So the republicans can not solve this problem. Not even the so called "new" ones, because there are no truly new republicans. Take for instance that interview with Mitch Daniels, that apogee posted on the John Stewart thread. It appears that he is saying all of the right things, but he isn't. He points to the need to grow the economy as the solution to all of our economic problems, yet he fails to address the fact that over growing our economy is what gave us this current recession, which reduced our resources to pay our debt. So growing the economy is not as simple as just doing everything that will help it grow. One needs to understand moderation.
You overheat the economy, then start two wars and you cut taxes and you end up with the mess that we have. Until you understand all of the dynamics of that, then you can't fix the problem. At this point I see no republican who seems to understand this. Thus they can not fix the problem.
.....
You can't solve a problem with the same consciousness that created the problem... Einstein.
...
To clear up something said earlier. You can not compare 1980 dollar amounts to 2012 dollar amounts, even if you translate the 1980 dollar amounts to current dollars, without also comparing the size of the economy.
The example of a person doubling a 100 dollar credit card bill versus a 1000 dollar credit card bill needs to include how much income the person can generate.
Doubling a 100 dollar credit card bill when one only makes 50 dollars a year is much worse then doubling a 1000 dollar credit card bill when one makes 2000 dollars a year.
Not that this example precisely fits our current or past situations. I simply used numbers that would be easier to understand.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Sep 29, 2011 - 04:25pm PT
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. Apparently you don't expect much. I'd love to have YOU for a boss.
Check your insulto hostility meter Lois. That is an insult. You are calling him a pantywaste.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Sep 29, 2011 - 04:37pm PT
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John,
Well based on what you have put forth, it makes absolutely no sense for us to engage in discussion. I don't agree with any of those assessments which you have offered but you are certainly entitled to your opinion. For my part, I am only interested in having debates with people who are not overtly hostile and genuinely wish to look at the various issues. If you perceive me in the light you have outlined, then, of course, you WILL be hostile. You would be unable to meet my criteria for having non-hostile interaction as a requisite for discussion.
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CrackAddict
Trad climber
Joshua Tree
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Sep 29, 2011 - 04:45pm PT
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Vice President Joe Biden told Florida radio station WLRN on Thursday that voters should hold President Barack Obama, not former President George W. Bush, accountable for the poor state of America’s economy.
Obama is guilty of making a bad situation worse. But to say the state of the economy is any one person's (or party's) fault is simplistic and silly. Were the Republicans in power in Greece in the last 20 years?
We have lost our jobs to other countries. Our response has been to leverage our status as the World's reserve currency and borrow and print up to our eyeballs. The bills are coming due ... do we want to hunker down and fix the problems or do we want to end up like Greece in a few years?
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