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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Who will get #1,000? (Once Matt deletes his ten spam posts, that is.)
I like Kevin's idea about grading, but would take it a step or three further, maybe in a different direction.
In many ways, a route tells a story about the people and the place. That's reflected in many things - the name, the grade, the stories the climbers tell others, the description in the guidebook, the topo, campfire gossip, the deliberations of the morals & ethics committee, and ultimately the experiences that others have. Recognizing that we humans come into the story quite late on, and that the natural history of a place may have much more to say about it than we ever will. Also remembering that our stories form part of the history, although the interpretation of that history depends on perspective, information, and time. It's difficult to be entirely objective about our own actions, let alone about motivations and thoughts.
We have to tell our stories in a way that they're remembered, as a service to those who come after us. Whatever the "right" answer is to rappel bolting on the South Face of Half Dome - if indeed there is one - the story about it is now part of their heritage. If they better know where they've come from, they'll be able to make better decisions about where they're going.
The natural history of Half Dome tells its own story, but one that also needs to be remembered. Likewise the story of Yosemite, climbing in the park, and climbing on Half Dome. All provide important context.
I've always preferred written guidebooks, where a route description tells you when a first ascent was done, and by whom, and perhaps other pertinent or interesting information. A picture or topo add to this. SuperTopo guides often follow that format, and are the better for it - they tell something of the story of the climb.
Kevin's grading system would be fine, but may have both too much nuance, and too little. (People said much the same about Bridwell's proposal to subdivide 5.10...) Especially on a longer route, there could be endless subdivisions to describe each pitch or sub-pitch, lots of squabbling about exactly what it all meant, and it might end up taking away some of the adventure. But the grade of a route does tell part of its story, and should in context fairly reflect its nature.
Most guidebooks to sport climbing areas simply provide a topo or a marked photo, with one or two lines description if that. The names and dates may be at the back of the book. There's really no story to tell. Like bouldering movies, there's often not much of a plot, however hard you try.
Similarly, "sport" climbers often refer to someone "developing" routes or a climbing area, or even "setting" routes - outdoors. Language is telling, even given the sloppiness with which we often use it. (And most land managers probably don't much like the "D" word, either.) Language like that suggests that climbing is less about poetry, and more about engineering. There's certainly human spirit involved, and challenge in the outdoors, but not in the same manner.
I prefer to say that climbers create or discover routes - just like Michelangelo sculpting, the route is already there, and we just find it. I also think that we're all climbers, regardless of which sub-discipline we may at the moment be engaged in.
Those engaged in a first ascent in pure style - ground up, minimal alteration of the environment, no trickery - tend to have the widest spectrum of experiences, ranging from the awe of discovery to the mental and physical challenge to sheer terror. Much of that is missing in "sport" climbing. I don't know how you could ever grade for that - except by stories.
Routes, climbers, and climbing, are all about human endeavour, and stories about it. The best verge on poetic - a route name that in a few words sums up the climb and the story behind it. Lyrical accounts of climbs abound. Some are fine prose indeed, although many are understandably just workmanlike, and a lot are plain awful. You can't always have diamonds, and in any case coal has its own unique qualities. That sense of creation is harder to generate from a topo or photo, although some have terse if not witty epigrams.
Sean, Doug and friends have certainly told their part of the story of Growing Up, in detail. Full credit to them for telling us what happened, what they were thinking, and how they thought it all fitted in with the evolution of climbing. (Not to assume that climbing, on Half Dome, in Yosemite, or otherwise, needs to evolve.) And credit to them for participating in this discussion, and for the other who've (mostly) kept it useful, interesting, and polite. It's a difficult thing to do, in the face of criticism - but utter honesty, with yourself and others, is one of the hallmarks of a climber.
(For those who still want a topo, I somehow suspect there aren't many bolts on the upper wall.)
I suppose one could argue that, having chased up blind alleys at the end of the arch, half way up, Doug and Sean should have come back to camp, told everyone what had happened, and asked what to do next. (Or posted up on SuperTopo...) In effect, involved others in how their tale evolved. It seems a tad improbable, considering all their work to that point, and it seems doubtful that their decision as to what to do would have been any better informed.
My take on Growing Up is that it's a route that has stimulated some valuable debate, that it does not in any way detract from the nearby climbs, and that it will be a big challenge even for a competent party to repeat. I doubt that what was done will take away from the sense of challenge and adventure sought by others who go there, or cause them to think that rappel bolting is suddenly an acceptable thing to do in the Valley. The climb tells a story (or stories), and I believe it's a story we should listen to and think about, and that is not inconsistent with the story of climbing in Yosemite.
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Shingle
climber
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Shouldn't the route more properly be called "Growing Down?"
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Jim E
climber
Mountain Road
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I just wanted to post on this thread so I could one day claim to have been part of this great debate.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Warbler's idea is a good one which deserves consideration.
I mean, back when I started climbing, I often wondered where F7 or 5.9 and HVS and grade IV and all these things came from?
They evolved over time and came from discussion and consensus...
of a sort. It was all very confusing, but eventually you get used to it.
It would at least force people to think about the little letters going next to their route in the guidebook. The cheesier the style, the more little letters you get! I would surely prefer a simple F next to my route grading.
Mighty Hiker, awesome post!
Festus Ginsberg Beefheart, nice!
Matt, WTFO?
Dr. Rock, step away from the crack pipe! Or lighten up on the medical marijuana at least.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Thanks to all who kept it civil and especially to Sean and Doug.
This has been a great thread with a lot of great comments from both sides. Every generation of climbers take "issue" with the new breed, their styles and techniques, the way its always been and more than likely always be, just remember...a lot of us here use to be the "new breed", not bound by the past but open to the future.
The sport of climbing will continue to change and the train will continue to roll down the tracks, I am just glad I had a seat with a view.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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TOPO and or bolt count, PLEASE !
DR and Sean Jones, since this route was done for the community (among other reasons), the request for a topo is well within parameters here.
How in the hill is anybody supposed to climb it in the fashion that you two envisioned without the necessary BETA ?
A "standard" trad rack for the lower half would be a good guess, but how many draws per pitch on the upper half--3, 10 or 20 ?
For all of us, PLEASE !
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I don't think the "Shame" ratings belong in the actual grade for difficulty/protection, although I'd be fine if they were coded into the guidebooks. I envision climbers yelling out, Duuuude, I just cranked that 5.11bPast!
Even better than abbreviations would be recording the stories of first ascents. The internet gives us the free publishing and space to get everybody's stories before they are gone. That way, future generations will understand why the old school did it the way they did and the nuances behind why different choices were also made (such as was explained on this thread)
An idea that I had awhile back was a registry of First Ascent stories. It was going to go on Rockclimbing.com (they wanted it too but it didn't quite happen, could be revived) but mini versions of it could go anyplace, like even Supertopo. Here's a link to the proposal.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=20494
Here was some of the initial discussion
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=20192
Here's the text of the idea
First Ascender Registry Introduction
Technical Rockclimbing is a relatively new sport but one which is bound to endure. Many of the pioneers and vanguards of rockclimbing are still with us. Inevitably, those people will pass with time while the routes that they established will live in geologic time. If humans can save themselves and this planet, there will be climbers enjoying the classic routes hundreds of years from now.
We have a unique opportunity to give something to those future generations of climbers. We can still record the history of the sport through the opinions and stories of those who helped develop it. If we do that, we will have a people’s history of the sport that won’t be narrowly focused on one area, or the achievements of a few. We will have an intimate view about how different people experienced the evolution of rockclimbing.
The climbing community has always accorded some value to the style and ethics displayed by the first ascent party. Style and ethics became a moral battleground in countless climbing areas. It’s a dramatic story of preservation versus development, of change versus tradition, and a tale of inspiration, ego, and discovery. The story of new routes goes beyond the technical difficulties to include friendship with partner, membership in community, and living large.
The culture of climbing has constantly changed and will continue to do so. More folks are introduced to climbing at the gym nowadays rather than outside in nature. Sport climbing has greatly influenced the development of new routes. These changes are going to influence the culture of the sport. Many climbers have strong opinions about how trad and sport routes should coexist in major climbing areas. Our Sport has been mostly self-regulated, and most climbers want to keep it that way. Our climbing resources are finite. We have to use them wisely together.
Climbing has always been a breeding ground for advocates of harmony with nature. Many of the pioneers of the environmental movement were first climbers. I believe that the process of change in rockclimbing will be smoother and more positive if the future generations have the record of the opinions, perspectives and anecdotes of those climbers who established the routes.
I also believe that climbing will be more fun if we can share in the adventure of those who were on the route first.
The First Ascent Registry works like this. The first ascender creates a profile under their name. They tell us whatever they want to share about their experiences and opinions as a climber. They can write a little or a lot. They can tell us epic campfire stories or share the ethos of their adventures. They can tell us what climbing means to them. There is freedom of speech, but a climber cannot discuss racist, sexually explicit, pornographic, or criminal acts or use profanity since those are the rules for all communication on the website. I’m sure we will be able to get the truth out anyway.
Each route in the Rockclimbing.com database has a field for “FA Notes” The first ascender can easily create their route in the database if it isn’t already there, and link it to their profile. The “FA Notes” field gives the climber a chance to tell the story of a particular route. They can write a quick comment or a long story.
Each route will also have a place for everyone else’s comments about the route, beta, trip reports and feedback.
Not every old school climber will jump on the net and fiddle with our database. That makes this people’s history a community project. We need to talk to the pioneers of routes and record their stories with permission to put them in the public domain. To avoid a few pranksters from spoiling what cold be a great resource, those who wish to volunteer to collect data from other climbers will need to contact the manager of the area that contains the route or some other rockclimbing.com administrator to be authorized to post FA Data.
Let’s collect the history of our sport and pass it on. The Internet makes a worldwide database of history possible and free to all. You can make a difference in a unique experiment in history.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Annother great sport rout goes up. Portero Chico 2007 photo by Alex Spencer(C)2007
Is this really that much more noble than rap bolting? It's still a lot of work but you end up with all those bat hook holes...
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Well that didn't take long to bust the 1000 post mark. Quite a ride. All in all a very worthwhile debate and disscussion.
And it has been particularly enjoyable to not have to suffer through yet another "C of C" spew-a-thon or an LEB drivel drift on the front page.
But it raises a question. What is the most posts ever on a ST forum thread?
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Sean's route, his right and honor to post the topo.
I don't have one, and anyway I defer to Sean. But he is new here and I'm pretty sure doesn't own a scanner, and may lack the skills to post a photo/drawing.
I'll tell you what I know. For one, Sean did draw a topo and sent it to R&I. They were tight on space, what with giving me so many words to fill in the South Face history (thanks, you guys at the mag), and having so many excellent Sean Reeder photos to squeeze in. One of my favorite shots is of Sarah Watson sidelit on the Mini Snake Dike pitch halfway up the headwall, and it barely got in kinda small.
Anyway, R&I punted on printing the topo just for space considerations. I asked them about putting it up on the web alongside the article (thanks again to R&I for posting it with nearly all the photos). They said it was -- I forget exactly, but somehow graphically indistinct enough to not reproduce well.
So I emailed wildone Ben Montoya, who's in El Portal with Sean and asked him if he could help Sean get another topo drawn and scanned and up here.
Just thought it might help you all to know that we are far from withholding or stalling on getting you the beta -- it's just technical problems. Starting with Sean being busy pounding nails and feeding his kids.
Way upthread I gave you ratings for the first 10 or 11 trad pitches, and Ben amplified on that.
Here's a bit more, just from my none-too-accurate memory. I recall Sean mentioning 70 bolts on that upper wall. I was too busy drilling the next hole to count. And I'm gonna guess that 15 draws would be ample for the crux pitch of the upper wall, the .11d pitch that comes off the A0 bolt ladder and traversed right to get to the bottom of the dike, then up it a ways. I think there have been a couple of shots of that pitch, with Sean crimping down hard. Fifteen should be more than enough draws for that pitch.
Now, if you take roughly 70 bolts and spread them over a thousand feet of climbing, and maybe that includes some of the double-bolt stances, you can do the math and realize the average runout.
Ain't no sport climb.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Thanks, Doug, that helps paint a clearer picture. :-)
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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This really reminds me of the route "Birds of Fire" on Chiefhead in Rocky Mountain National Park. The route was established top down on a slab void of continious cracks. Richard Rossiter and his wife Joyce established the climb over a period of three to four weeks drilling by hand, putting in quality 3/8 inch bolts for protection and belays.
Chiefhead at the time was considered (like SFHD) sacred ground for the ground up style and caused the same uproar with locals around Boulder and Estes Park.
Go here and read the comment on the route...now considered one of the best face climbs and routes in all of RMNP.
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/colorado/alpine_rock/rmnp__rock/105754135
Let history be the judge of Sean route...not the gloom and doom crowd who hold on to the past because they are not part of the present.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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bob-
does the word "propogannda" have any meaning for you whatsoever?
just curious.
and btw- are you in politics?
becase you stay "on message" w/ the best of them.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Talk about bad style! Doug, if as you say, the upper pitches have some big runouts then that really is bad style. It is one thing to do a route ground up and force subsequent parties to do the same runouts that the FA had to experience. However, top roping a route to figure out where the bolts go and then creating runouts is really lame.
By top roping the route you have prior knowledge of what the climbing is like between the bolts. Those going for subsequent ascents ground up, on sight, do not. Hence, it is easier for the FA party to place the bolts farther apart since they know what is ahead. This is one very big reason why rap bolting, especially on routes where you aren't placing a lot of bolts per pitch is a bad idea. It is a slippery slope as many have been saying here.
Bruce
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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sorry bhilden, but that's a poor criticism until it comes om somene who has actually climbed the rig
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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There is a new 4 pitch slab climb on Rogers Rock NY The Matrix 5.8+ that was rap bolted. They installed 4 bolts per pitch on the first 3 60m pitches. Some would say that is crazy run out but in reality it is slightly more bolts than average for that part of the cliff. An excelent, fun climb, sporty but reasonably protected for slab climbing at the grade. Perhaps if the upper part of GU is slab that it was bolted in standard somewhat runout slab style. To rap bolt a climb and leave a dangerously run out finished product is pretty darn silly though.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Bruce, get a grip! You're babbling, man.
I just pointed out that the most well-bolted pitch is the upper wall crux, the 5.11d. By contrast, the last pitch to the summit is about 5.6. Do you really think that we would have spaced the bolts on that pitch at the same intervals as the hard stuff? We're not grid-chomping robots, and besides my arms were pretty wasted by then. So that pitch, for instance, is 5.6R. Deal with it.
You seem, perhaps, to be looking for reasons to revile what we did? Your attitude is your attitude, but don't insult me with fatuous assumptions.
I'll pass on squirming into those shoes.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Again this photo by Alex Spencer is the Reality of most bolt protected hard big wall ground up free climbs. Looking at this photo realisticly it is no much of a streach to say what the heck, Why don't we just top bolt it and not drill all those bat hook holes....
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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For god sakes Bruce....go climb the route and stop making false assumptions....take Joe with you.
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nita
climber
chica from chico, I don't claim to be a daisy
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The Great Debate... is going to easily surpass,The Who in the Hell are you People thread.
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